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Another buy-in gone... too passive or unlucky?
Pysterman
Member Posts: 187
Is there any justification for taking this line? Was I just unlucky... or did I get what I deserved?
Right... I know that I could have 3-bet pre and possibly taken the hand then. I could have bet out or check-raised on the flop and/or turn... and possibly taken the hand down then.
However, I felt this was good board to trap on. The villain raised pre, so I figured there was a good chance the villain had hit the A, possibly with a draw. With Ad Qd on board I thought a flush draw was unlikely.
With a total blank on the turn, I figured nothing had changed, so kept in check-call mode.
With the 8 on the river, the board still looked pretty safe for me. I was only losing to AA (unlikely), JT or 67 (unlikely). When villain re-shoves, he could easily be doing this with two pairs (Ax) or a lower set, so I feel I have to call.
In summary, I know if had been more aggressive I would probably have taken the hand down and won a small pot. But surely, in this case, I don't want my opponent to fold his TJ against my hand. Until the river card spoilt everything, I felt like I was getting good value out my set of queens by taking the line I did. The weaker hand was continuing to put money into the pot.
Right... I know that I could have 3-bet pre and possibly taken the hand then. I could have bet out or check-raised on the flop and/or turn... and possibly taken the hand down then.
However, I felt this was good board to trap on. The villain raised pre, so I figured there was a good chance the villain had hit the A, possibly with a draw. With Ad Qd on board I thought a flush draw was unlikely.
With a total blank on the turn, I figured nothing had changed, so kept in check-call mode.
With the 8 on the river, the board still looked pretty safe for me. I was only losing to AA (unlikely), JT or 67 (unlikely). When villain re-shoves, he could easily be doing this with two pairs (Ax) or a lower set, so I feel I have to call.
In summary, I know if had been more aggressive I would probably have taken the hand down and won a small pot. But surely, in this case, I don't want my opponent to fold his TJ against my hand. Until the river card spoilt everything, I felt like I was getting good value out my set of queens by taking the line I did. The weaker hand was continuing to put money into the pot.
| manu1977 | Small blind | £0.05 | £0.05 | £5.89 | |
| Pysterman | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.15 | £10.37 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| stejomi | Fold | ||||
| maruff | Fold | ||||
| ballboy | Raise | £0.30 | £0.45 | £9.39 | |
| snowy6789 | Fold | ||||
| manu1977 | Fold | ||||
| Pysterman | Call | £0.20 | £0.65 | £10.17 | |
| Flop | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| |||||
| Pysterman | Check | ||||
| ballboy | Bet | £0.40 | £1.05 | £8.99 | |
| Pysterman | Call | £0.40 | £1.45 | £9.77 | |
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| Pysterman | Check | ||||
| ballboy | Bet | £0.80 | £2.25 | £8.19 | |
| Pysterman | Call | £0.80 | £3.05 | £8.97 | |
| River | |||||
| |||||
| Pysterman | Bet | £2.29 | £5.34 | £6.68 | |
| ballboy | All-in | £8.19 | £13.53 | £0.00 | |
| Pysterman | All-in | £6.68 | £20.21 | £0.00 | |
| Pysterman | Unmatched bet | £0.78 | £19.43 | £0.78 | |
| Pysterman | Show |
| |||
| ballboy | Show |
| |||
| ballboy | Win | Straight to the Queen | £18.03 | £18.03 | |
Comments
Preflop it was folded to me in the cutoff and I made a standard raise from this position with J-10 off suit.
With this hand, ideally I am probably hoping to obviously hit my hand, but its nice to take down the blinds. If an ace comes there is a good chance I will take it down on the flop with a bet, somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3s of the pot or so I thought. In this spot, if its 3bet to anything more than 80p it would probably be taken down preflop. A raise what a lot of players do, 3betting to 50p doesn't get the job done as I am never for 20p when I have position and I am thinking if an ace doesn't come I might also take it away from them on a later street
On this board on the flop, with a flush draw an ace and a sopping wet board I thought Pysterman could have anything here
AQ9 two diamonds. I have a straight draw here and I know he is checking most things here as most check to the raiser. I decided to bet 2/3s of the pot and he called. At this point I thought he wouldn't have 2nd pair as he would probably have tried to find out where he was either by betting with a donk bet or 3betting the flop. The flush draw obviously looks the most likely, but he may have had a hand like A-8 that he decided to defend preflop with and is calling with a view to evaluating on the turn. He may also have a hand like AQ AK etc but these hands I also ruled out as I think they would have reraised with on the flop if they hadn't done so already before the flop
The turn comes 5 of hearts and this doesn't seem to change much. He checks to me again and I think if he has a flush draw a 2/3s pot bet will certainly take it down here. Having seen his threads on here I don't think he is the type to chase the flush with awful odds to call. The problem with my bet on the turn is that with the inconsequential card (unless he has Ace-5 or any two pair with the 5 or even trip 5s) is that anything that beats me is still probably not folding. I have already ruled out second pair and after him calling the second bet on the turn I think he has either an Ace or something pretty much dead on what I have - a straight draw.
The river is jenga- 8 of spades which gives me the nut straight. To my suprise he bets here and my first thought is he has 2 pair or 10-J as well which he may easily call 2 streets with as if I had a hand like AQ, AK etc possibly A9 if he hits the straight, he could win a massive pot. The pots 3 quid and Pysterman bets little over 2 quid, 2/3s of the pot. The pot is about 5 quid and my stack is little over 8. He has 6.68 having started the hand with 10.38 so he had committed about 3.50 odd to the pot (1/3 of his stack so far and in my view probably would shove the rest in if I go all in). With such a strong line there was no other option but to shove here. I didn't think there was anything he could have which he could bet this much on and then fold to an all in shove unless he had air so i chucked it in and polarised my range. I don't think he could have thought I was bluffing here; a lot of the time I would have AK AQ AJ etc and I maybe shove for extra value. With just one pair I would possibly call as I can't beat many of his value bets on the river. There was good chance he had two pair here.
He calls and turns over trip queens to my suprise.
Initial thoughts were where were the raises?
With this hand and the draw I have, it puts me at an edge because Pysterman has reverse implied odds here. If I am reraised on any street I know I am probably behind and I just bin the hand. If I am reraised preflop enough I am folding. On the flop if its significantly more than a min raise I am out of there. The turn card didn't look like it changed anything for him, so there was no reason for him to reraise the turn when he didn't reraise the flop.
The river is just unlucky. If it hadn't come I would probably have just folded the river.
Everything added up to me either winning a bit pot or Pysterman winning a smaller pot and fortunately for me it was the former. If I had something my two streets suggested like AK or AQ it probably would have been the opposite way round and I would have been stacked
3bet pre
raise flop
raise turn
river is ok, although I might go for crai
Ballboy:
Check back turn, if you do bet you need to be firing again on nearly all rivers
You give your hand away by 3betting but you will give it away by donk betting or 3betting on the flop. By trying to keep your strength hidden, you allow his draw to get there. In terms of risk/reward ratio, you took a huge risk for little potential reward but high potential loss.
I know the standard play would be to 3-bet pre and raise the flop, and in this case that would have taken the pot, probably pre-flop winning me about 25p, which admittedly is better than losing the best part of £10.
However, I knew that the raiser was solid and probably wouldn't call my 3bet if raising light. Surely, against an observant opponent, I don't want to always 3bet my premium pairs. Do I not turn my hand face up?
Also, do I not want my opponent to call here?
As Ballboy has said, my hand was certainly disguised. If he had been value betting AK or Ax (2 pair) or a smaller set I could easily have got a good portion (if not all ) of his stack here. If he had not hit the straight on the end, I would have won a reasonable little pot, rather than forcing him to fold pre or on the flop.
(Obviously, if he checks behind on the flop I am not giving him any more free cards.)
What I am asking is... in this hand, I've got to assume that I'm probably way ahead. So, do I get more value out of the hand against a decent reg by raising (and probably forcing weaker hands to fold) or letting my opponent bet into me and keeping my hand disguised?
(Against an unknown or a standard fishy microstakes player I would have definitely followed the standard line, betting/raising every street. And I'm not saying I would always following this passive line against a reg.)
Most of the posters seem to have recommended the standard line here, and I'm not trying to argue. I'm just giving you my thinking. Since I'm no longer in profit at this level (though I smash NL4) I am obviously looking to improve and would like some feedback on specifically what's wrong with the rationale I have described above.
taking lines of if I bet oppo folds, how do you ever get paid - u need to raise it up
what hands would you c/r and why
also what hands would you c/c and why
how is a set a c/c hand on a wet flop
If oppo can not pay you on the flop then how does this change further down the streets by c/c
Only changes by oppo outdrawing you
The whole summary though is that if they smash the flop with AK etc you will win a big pot. You are rarely going to get an all in on the flop v a straight draw for £8 or £9 from each player here. I definitely aren't going to do it. The only time you can possibly win my stack on here are if I flop two pair or hit two pair. If it came J-10 turn and river though this would make 4 to a straight which would be a tough call for two pair if you bet on the end.
On changing your fortunes at NL10. I suggest multitabling to defeat inevitable boredom and play your hands strongly, you ideally want to be last aggressor preflop a lot of the time so you can carve out pots when you both miss the flop. When you have monsters play them strong and your goal is ultimately winning a guys stack. Its easier to get a 6 quid bet in on the river when the pot is 9 quid for example than if the pot is only 2 quid because you have lost value from slow playing big hands. You would be betting 6 quid into 2 quid (3x the pot) showing ridiculous strength and polarising your hand to the effective nuts or a complete bluff. If your betting big on all streets you avert from this very suspicious play and your monsters are less likely to be highlighted to your opponent
On the turn there's only £3 in the pot. It's a long way from that to the playing for stacks, and a pot of £18. You really need to try to build the pot before the river, to get value from drawing hands and big aces. If the pot ends up ballooning from £3 to £18 on the river, you know you're only up against a big hand. Those times when you're not up against a big hand, you won't be able to play for stacks when leaving the betting until the river.
I think it is much more +ev to 3-bet with QQ+ and AK and ballance that with about the same number of 3-bet bluffs with hands that can flop well if your 3-bet is called. eg. 3-bet with high suited connectors on the button, if you are called then you may sometimes hit a juicy flop but most times you will take it down pre-flop. You can also 3-bet bluff with hands like A5s out of possition with the intention of 5-betting if you think that your opponent can 4-bet fold and doesn't call many 3-bets. (If you are called you will still be 30% against their range)
Obviously against most NL10 players you should only be 3-betting for value with QQ+ and AK. But as you move up the levels and start playing against players who aren't just monkeys pushing buttons, 3-betting because a huge part of the game
I will take your advice on board and keep plugging away at NL10, at least until my bankroll dictates otherwise. I still dip into NL4/8.
It just seems that whenever I have a big hand and all the money goes in, I run into a slightly bigger one. And when I do have the best hand, I struggle to get paid. (Note, I don't usually slowplay hands like the one above. I was trying to mix it up against a player I knew was solid. But enough said.)
I'm sure this isn't always the case (I'm roughly 3½ buy-ins down after 6835 hands, which I guess isn't too bad - i.e. I'm not exactly being crushed at this level) but of course we remember the bad beats a lot more than the wins.
c/r flop cos you have 2nd nuts, so for value
c/r turn for same reason
You cant get his stack without raising somewhere. Pots increase exponentially so the earlier you raise the bigger you can make the pot. Think about potsize if you 3bet pre and get 1 bet called on flop, compared to as played. Because of the smaller stack to pot ratio this creates its easier to stack villain light. The way you played it you only stack him if you cooler him
Mixing up your game is fine, but you always should be playing this hand to take all his chips. Slowplaying is not usually the way to do it without specific reads