Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?

Poker_Fail

No real reads, had won a few big pots from him though so there's a chance he could have just snapped.

Should have put thses in earlier, I viewed Head as the main value of the table


DISCLAIMER: I play a mix of Cash, DYMs and MTTs, out of these cash is by far my weakest so if this is super standard don't cry.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
badcawl	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£18.25
LadyLeo	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£0.11
	Your hole cards	10 K
head	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£20.21
JACK	Call		£0.20	£0.70	£28.10
Poker_Fail	Raise		£0.80	£1.50	£68.09
harold1	Fold
LEE001	Call		£0.80	£2.30	£18.60
didalo	Fold
lemonada	Fold
badcawl	Fold
LadyLeo	Fold
head	Call		£0.60	£2.90	£19.61
JACK	Call		£0.60	£3.50	£27.50
Flop
		3 2 6
head	Check
JACK	Check
Poker_Fail	Check
LEE001	Check
Turn
		K
headroc	Check
JACK	Bet		£0.60	£4.10	£26.90
Poker_Fail	Raise		£2.20	£6.30	£65.89
LEE001	Fold
head	Call		£2.20	£8.50	£17.41
JACK	Fold
River
		5
head	Check
Poker_Fail	Bet		£4.25	£12.75	£61.64
head	All-in		£17.41	£30.16	£0.00
Poker_Fail	Fold
head	Muck
head	Win		£16.15		£16.15
head	Return		£13.16	£0.85	£29.31

Poker_Fail

By the way, my small reraise on the turn was because Jack seemed quite timid and would only call decent raises with better hands, so I didn't think there was much value bumping it up to £3.50 or whatever...

GuitarLad

Well, what was your rationale for your 4x raise pf, after two limpers? 

If it was simply to build a pot with the aim of hitting a decent made hand then, a river fold is fine. You've invited a range of small pockets and marginal hands to make the call preflop and hit. Checking the flop has allowed the flush to get there on the turn, and although you have hit TP, you are still multiway on a wet board with a relatively weak kicker and no re-draws.

I like a larger raise pre tbh, and/or a cbet to polarise

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?:

Well, what was your rationale for your 4x raise pf, after two limpers?  If it was simply to build a pot with the aim of hitting a decent made hand then, a river fold is fine. You've invited a range of small pockets and marginal hands to make the call preflop and hit. Checking the flop has allowed the flush to get there on the turn, and although you have hit TP, you are still multiway on a wet board with a relatively weak kicker and no re-draws. I like a larger raise pre tbh, and/or a cbet to polarise
Posted by GuitarLad

The raise pre was for value, a couple players at the table were calling light.

Can I ever expect all 3 of them to fold to a flop cbet? Or are you including a double barrell?

GuitarLad

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?:

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold? : The raise pre was for value, a couple players at the table were calling light. Can I ever expect all 3 of them to fold to a flop cbet? Or are you including a double barrell?
Posted by Poker_Fail

If you raised with intention of looking for calls, you either identified a weak player who you can outplay on the flop, or you want the flop to slap you in the face. Looking at this hand, you have multi-callers, so outplaying all of them might be tricky... unless they were all weak? If not, then you are relying on hitting the flop hard or taking a passive line imo.

ballboy

I think the problem with this hand is that you turned a hand with good showdown value into a bluff here and you gave Headroc the ability to get it all in when you were not as strong as you were representing.

I don't really understand your reasoning for your turn reraise- If Jack is quite a tight player, some of the hands he could be betting with already have you beat. The only reason I can think why you would reraise him is to ascertain his hand strength and if he calls you are going into cheap showdown mode, which you might not even get to. Its not unlikely someone has flopped a straight here (if they are weak players who may call big raises with connecting cards). With your pair on the turn, your kicker is only 10 high, so you aren't beating many of the Kings people could have. When Headroc calls your reraise, the alarm bells should probably be ringing. Could he have K8 or K9 here? Not likely I don't think. The flush is also out there which he could have.

On this street

I think I would just call Jack here. You could already be dead if he has turned the flush. This could mean Headroc reraises you. If he doesn't this makes the pot £5.30 rather than £8.50.

On the river -Headrock may bet if he has a straight or a flush here. The weak bets on the turn might make him think you both might free showdown (check your hands). If he bets £3.20 then you can call here with your pair of kings and get to showdown, assuming Jack just folds the river

That would mean you losing 80p preflop - £0 on the flop - 60p on the turn and £3.20 on the river

Thats £4.60. On your hand it was about £7.30 and you didn't get to see his cards at showdown.

When you have a really strong hand ideally I would want to be getting the money in as quickly as possible, but with top pair and a 10 kicker on this board composition, I would be trying to get to free showdown as cheap as possible and use the hand as a bluff catcher. One of the important things with vulnerable hands that are beat is to try and keep the pot small to make your losses a minimum. If the pot is smaller in my example of the hand, Headroc to get the pot to the size of what it is in your hand is going to have to raise merge and bet absolutely massive to split his hand into either a complete bluff or the near nuts, which more often that not will be the latter. This would be like a claxon in your ear that you are behind and should fold and even though you won't get to see his cards at showdown, you will know that you probably have made the right decision

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?:

I think the problem with this hand is that you turned a hand with good showdown value into a bluff here and you gave Headroc the ability to get it all in when you were not as strong as you were representing. I don't really understand your reasoning for your turn reraise- If Jack is quite a tight player, some of the hands he could be betting with already have you beat. The only reason I can think why you would reraise him is to ascertain his hand strength and if he calls you are going into cheap showdown mode, which you might not even get to. Its not unlikely someone has flopped a straight here. Your kicker is only 10 high, so you aren't beating many of the Kings people could have. When Headroc calls your reraise, the alarm bells should probably be ringing. Could he have K8 or K9 here? Not likely I don't think. The flush is also out there which he could have. On this street I think I would just call Jack here. You could already be dead if he has turned the flush. This could mean Headroc reraises you. If he doesn't this makes the pot £5.30 rather than £8.50. On the river -Headrock may bet if he has a straight or a flush here. The weak bets on the turn might make him think you both might free showdown. If he bets £3.20 then you can call here with your pair of kings and get to showdown, assuming Jack just folds the river That would mean you losing 80p preflop - £0 on the flop - 60p on the turn and £3.20 on the river Thats £4.60. On your hand it was about £7.30. When you have a really strong hand ideally I would want to be getting the money in as quickly as possible, but with top pair and a 10 kicker on this board composition, I would be trying to get to free showdown as cheap as possible and use the hand as a bluff catcher.
Posted by ballboy

Jack was a strange player, he seemed to be willing to call with very weak hands, if you put out a weak bet, against a player like that is there value in bumping up the pot slightly?

Head was the main value i was talking about, so his turn call to me meant almost nothing, that's why I though there was some value to be had by B/Fing the river.

liamboi11

the way hand is played im happy 2 check river back what worse hands you think he is going to call you with on the river?

grantorino

turn raise ok if you can bet that turn for value 4 way against these guys. If guy leads bigger though its definitely a flat

river is prob a check back. Missed draws fold anyway and a good few Kx beat you. Value betting pretty thin unless he calls very light

rancid

bet flop
why raise turn when flush completes

when called on turn
give up on river

Poker_Fail

Rancid + Grantorino, I guess I should have bet one or the other, I deffo think there was some value to be had as this oppo was happy to call with 2nd pair, but I see that I shouldn't have bet turn and river.

Although the flush has "completed" surely there is still a need on the turn to bet make him pay if he does have 1 high club along with say 2nd pair?

NColley

isolating with K10s in EP3 on 10 seater may be a little optimistic.

turn, meh. sometimes I'd raise, sometimes I'd flat. raise size isn't really big enough to get people off a draw.

river is a check behind, there isn't any thin value to be had on that board.

rancid

by turn your hand is a bluff catcher or maybe you can get some value from someone over playing or over valueing their hand


turn & river - would seem you have turned your hand into a bluff
would be ok if your aware oppo is looking to catch your bluffs

don't understand these over aggressive lines after you check flop, and when you have decent showdown

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?:

by turn your hand is a bluff catcher or maybe you can get some value from someone over playing or over valueing their hand turn & river - would seem you have turned your hand into a bluff would be ok if your aware oppo is looking to catch your bluffs don't understand these over aggressive lines after you check flop, and when you have decent showdown
Posted by rancid

Against a player who I view as a stat iony fish isn't it a case of hit mediocre hand, get some money in the pot?

ballboy

The problem is Poker Fail.

You don't seem to be putting your opponent on a hand you can beat, which can stand upto your bet on the river. You only have top pair with a 10 kicker.

You would be losing to all these hands

AK
KQ
KJ
2-3
5-6
4-3
4-5
K5
K6
2-2
3-3
6-6

There is a few others as well like over pairs and other weird two pairs and turn/river sets

You could beat

K7
K8
K9
6-7
A6
a flush draw on the turn which doesn't come in and they would check fold anyway.

There is a

2-3-5-6-K board by the river

Even if he flopped top pair. Do you think he is really going to be in the hand on the turn with something like A6 or at an absolute push 6-7. Would he be crazy enough to check raise the river with one of these hands?

There is nearly a straight on there if he has a 4 in his hand. There is also 3 to a flush.

With the way the action has gone and with a disaster card on the river- the 5 making you hand look even weaker as it increases the chances of him making 2 pair or a straight.

I think you must check here. If you are going for thin value betting on this board without a plan if you are reraised then that suggests you shouldn't do it at all. If you are confident you have the best hand you can do it, but I don't think you can be. You have been caught trying to skimp too much cream off the top and you got burnt for it

Poker_Fail

I did have a plan if he reraised, simple fold, was just wondering if there was any case for goin for some value instead of checking behind.

But it's been a unanimous no so I'll try and be less of a fish next time : )

rancid

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?:

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold? : Against a player who I view as a stat iony fish isn't it a case of hit mediocre hand, get some money in the pot?
Posted by Poker_Fail

If oppo always pays off with worse then it's ok, but then oppo gotta be really bad to call a turn raise with half a hand or with maybe a club and even if it hits it still may be no good
Your kinda hoping oppo has a bluff catcher type hand

is oppo really that bad )
Has oppo really got Kx9c type hand or Ac6x or any pr with club that doesn't bet flop

raising turn multi way is kinda risky isn't it with players behind
may check turn, v/b river

Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?:

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold? : If oppo always pays off with worse then it's ok, but then oppo gotta be really bad to call a turn raise with half a hand or with maybe a club and even if it hits it still may be no good Your kinda hoping oppo has a bluff catcher type hand is oppo really that bad ) Has oppo really got Kx9c type hand or Ac6x or any pr with club that doesn't bet flop raising turn multi way is kinda risky isn't it with players behind may check turn, v/b river
Posted by rancid

He was VERY spewy, would easily call with 2nd pair, sometimes even 3rd, however I guess this board was very wet so I shouldn't have been cheeky enough to attempt 2 streets of value!

SkyPokerTV

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Poker_Fail

In Response to Re: Is this river a standard Bet/Fold?:

Hi, Thank you for your post, If you would like us to analyse your hand on the poker clinic on our live TV show please do let us know which tournament/cash table the hand is from and also your hand ID. Poker Clinic is every Thursday at 8pm. All the best Sky Poker TV Team.
Posted by SkyPokerTV

It was on a 10seater non-mastercash table