River Jam too thin?

grantorino

Villain seems fishy likes to limp call, but no specific reads. Standard enough spot, just wondering what people like on river

grantorino	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£22.20
Z	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£19.45
	Your hole cards	K J
X	Fold
V	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£18.26
Y	Fold
grantorino	Raise		£0.90	£1.40	£21.30
Z	Fold
V	Call		£0.80	£2.20	£17.46
Flop
		6 J 7
grantorino	Bet		£1.65	£3.85	£19.65
V	Call		£1.65	£5.50	£15.81
Turn
		3
grantorino	Bet		£4.13	£9.63	£15.52
V	Call		£4.13	£13.76	£11.68
River
		8
grantorino	All-in		£15.52	£29.28	£0.00

WHOAMI196

ie its a bit thin,

 i mean his range might look like a7,a6,910, 89,78,99,88 he could also have a j in this spot, impossible for me to justify as there's no reads, but mostly he will fold a chunk of this range and call with what beats you.

What are you trying to achieve shoving the river, turning your hand into a bluff?  Getting max value? Whatever it is i dont like. 

I might even c/c river, you have marginal hand, what worse hands call you'r shove? 8 co,mpletes some of his range too.

The way i would play this is all depends on villain, if a very bad donk-likes to call down weak(and i have strong reads on him, making me believe i am ahead) i would over bet the turn for value and shove river. V unknown though i would check turn and make a small value bet on the river(depends on his actions ovc)

P.S nice to analyze you'r HH for a change lol

Dudeskin8

I think it's fine, most bad fish will play QJ/J10 even J9 this way.

If you check it has to be to fold as can't see worse betting.

Also effective stack on river is less than pot so shove makes even more sense.

grantorino

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin?:

ie its a bit thin,  i mean his range might look like a7,a6,910, 89,78,99,88 he could also have a j in this spot, impossible for me to justify as there's no reads, but mostly he will fold a chunk of this range and call with what beats you. What are you trying achieving shoving the river, turning your hand into a bluff?  Getting max value? Whatever it is i dont like.  I might even c/c river, you have marginal hand, what worse hands call you'r shove? 8 co,mpletes some of his range too. The way i would play this is all depends on villain, if a very bad donk-likes to call down weak(and i have strong reads on him, making me believe i am ahead) i would over bet the turn for value and shove river. V unknown though i would check turn and make a small value bet on the river(depends on his actions ovc) P.S nice to analyze you'r HH for a change lol
Posted by WHOAMI196

Given how many threads I reply to compared to hands I post I'm sure some people will enjoy the chance to criticise my play! Feel free.

Obv Im trying to acheive max value. Bluffing would be pretty stoopid imo, if you think shoving turns my hand into a bluff fair enough. The shove may be too thin, its for less than pot though. Do you think I should bet smaller? c/c ? c/f?

I think worse hands are more likely to call than bet, only reason to c/c rather than bet imo is if we think he likes to fire missed draws or turn weak pairs into bluffs

Why check turn? Whats our plan when he bets behind us? Its not a line I would take too often readless oop, interested in why you advocate it

yb

shove > c/f > c/c imo

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin?:

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin? : Given how many threads I reply to compared to hands I post I'm sure some people will enjoy the chance to criticise my play! Feel free. Obv Im trying to acheive max value. Bluffing would be pretty stoopid imo, if you think shoving turns my hand into a bluff fair enough. The shove may be too thin, its for less than pot though. Do you think I should bet smaller? c/c ? c/f? I think worse hands are more likely to call than bet, only reason to c/c rather than bet imo is if we think he likes to fire missed draws or turn weak pairs into bluffs Why check turn? Whats our plan when he bets behind us? Its not a line I would take too often readless oop, interested in why you advocate it
Posted by grantorino

EDIT; WORK AROUND THE FACT I HAVE MISS READ THE HAND, JUST NOTICED  YOU ARE OOP, SAME APPLIES, btw ITS GOOD YOU GET VALUE FROM BLUFFS ON THE TURN YOU CAN EXPLOIT THE FISH THIS WAY.

I know but you'r achieving neither Il try to explain my logic

The Turn is the crucial point in this hand , not the river, Whatever you decide to do on the turn will make you either gain max-value or lose-min. 

Reasons to check= "Pot control" makes it nearly impossible for you to lose your stack here (v 2 pair hands for e.g) as you are in position and have options on how to further play the hand. Its best to play small ball like this when your not sure if your j, king kicker is good, also when you are unsure of oppo tendencies, you may lose value but i think it is best given these scenarios.

Happy with you'r hand=i would bet flop bigger(v fish), bet turn close to pot with the intention of getting it in on the river, or just jam the turn(depending on stacks)

Here you have allowed villain to come along (fairly cheaply for a fish) where he will fold most rivers, but pay big on the turn, hence you are losing value, and i think you are only going to called when beat because you river jam is big(couple of j combo in his range i guess, but still).

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin?:

shove /> c/f /> c/c imo
Posted by yb

great insight from YB as usual

LOL_RAISE

id rather b/f smallish tbh

WHOAMI196

Its also important to add, you are allowing weaker holdings than your's to fold.

rancid

bet turn, so bet river

oppo ain't got pot bet behind so.......shove

if we think our kicker is bad then check turn...

think your fine here, what oppo have weaker kicker or some straight

EvilPingu

Am I the only one who would fold KJ in the SB pre-flop?

cgoldie

I don'tlike the shove. It's to high for the river when you can get value off weaker j's with a half or 2/3 bet. Your scaring off weaker hands.

grantorino

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin?:

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin? : EDIT; WORK AROUND THE FACT I HAVE MISS READ THE HAND, JUST NOTICED  YOU ARE OOP, SAME APPLIES, btw ITS GOOD YOU GET VALUE FROM BLUFFS ON THE TURN YOU CAN EXPLOIT THE FISH THIS WAY. I know but you'r achieving neither Il try to explain my logic The Turn is the crucial point in this hand , not the river, Whatever you decide to do on the turn will make you either gain max-value or lose-min.  Reasons to check= "Pot control" makes it nearly impossible for you to lose your stack here (v 2 pair hands for e.g) as you are in position and have options on how to further play the hand. Its best to play small ball like this when your not sure if your j, king kicker is good, also when you are unsure of oppo tendencies, you may lose value but i think it is best given these scenarios. Happy with you'r hand=i would bet flop bigger(v fish), bet turn close to pot with the intention of getting it in on the river, or just jam the turn(depending on stacks) Here you have allowed villain to come along (fairly cheaply for a fish) where he will fold most rivers, but pay big on the turn, hence you are losing value, and i think you are only going to called when beat because you river jam is big(couple of j combo in his range i guess, but still).
Posted by WHOAMI196

But being oop makes a huge difference if I am trying to pot control, I cant really pot control oop. If I check turn whats the plan for the rest of the hand( eg c/c 2 streets, bet river if he checks back etc?) Im not saying its bad, but it can put me in tricky spots and most hands call flop will call that turn. I may also lose value from draws that wont call a river bet.

I also dont agree I have allowed villain come along cheaply, in any case I want him to come along. Dont know exactly how fishy he is, he doesnt seem to be good, but not a 80 vpip guy either

You and a few others have suggested river bet is too big, which is what I was really asking about.  But with stacksizes does a villain like this really fold Jx, even TT,99,  hands for a shove much more than for a bet of 6.50-9? Thats really what I am wondering. Most worse hands prob fold to a 1/2 pot bet , doubt better ever folds, but I dont think he has better very much

grantorino

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin?:

id rather b/f smallish tbh
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Sizing? seems pretty tricky with stacks. If Im planning to do this is a smaller turn bet better?

LnarinOO

thin value bets are much more tricky OOP than IP purley as you have less info and by the river you'd  expect villain to have some kind of hand and if he was drawing possibly an even stronger hand than he did on the turn (if he got there).. HOWEVER on a thin value bet you would expect to be losing money probally about 40-45% of the time but if you never made these bets where you find yourself bettin for value agaisnt a hand that is barley stronger than yours you would be leaving money on the table.. 

its player dependant and to make it cheaper for the times i do get called i may make a slighlty less river bet but not sure which would be more profitable long term... 

playin it the same most of the time tho..

rancid

oppo has called two streets, why would he not stack off

is oppo really calling a £7 bet and not calling off £11

what are we b/f £3 ? Would we rarther b/c £3

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin?:

In Response to Re: River Jam too thin? : But being oop makes a huge difference if I am trying to pot control, I cant really pot control oop. If I check turn whats the plan for the rest of the hand( eg c/c 2 streets, bet river if he checks back etc?) Im not saying its bad, but it can put me in tricky spots and most hands call flop will call that turn. I may also lose value from draws that wont call a river bet. I also dont agree I have allowed villain come along cheaply, in any case I want him to come along. Dont know exactly how fishy he is, he doesnt seem to be good, but not a 80 vpip guy either You and a few others have suggested river bet is too big, which is what I was really asking about.  But with stacksizes does a villain like this really fold Jx, even TT,99,  hands for a shove much more than for a bet of 6.50-9? Thats really what I am wondering. Most worse hands prob fold to a 1/2 pot bet , doubt better ever folds, but I dont think he has better very much
Posted by grantorino

Firstly i have gone a bit ott with my posts sorry, prob because i get to needle you lol i was in mid-session so i have miss-read a bit.

2 ways i play this hand

 1 is get majority of his stack in before the river, because if he is on a draw he will only fold when missed and call when hit, here you are only getting value from j combo,or thi v1010,99 .

2 Slowing down, turn is a good card for you, unlikely to improve villains hand, you can c/r, c/c is ok v unknown(you are also getting value this way from bluffs on the river by c/c again) if it goes ceck-check, then you can v-bet river, although the 8 is not the best card for you, b/f might be best.

Edit/ answer to ur question i think he calls down with a j, but i think he could fold 10s,99 etc 

pod1

can i ask the thinking behind  3betting with kj oop? i know you say he limp calls a lot, but are you looking to c bet and how many streets to you follow this line on a non k j board. over time is this profitable? seems a bit fishy to me :-)