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3-bet pot NL8 pocket 9's line check 10 handed. Ta.

DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
edited March 2012 in The Poker Clinic
Ok, 10 handed 8NL cash table.

Villain 'x' has not been out of line at all and is playing nice and solid. He also sat with full buy in and always opens with a 3xbb raise and +1 bb for any limpers which is a sign of decentness at this level until i see any different. No previous reads before today.

Obviously i open with 99, he is sat in BB with a biggish stack and he raises. His raise size is small enough to price me in to set mine so i call and cross my fingers to aiming to hit flop full in face. At this moment in time i am thinking he has a big hand as he hasnt done many fishy things so far so i put his range at 10,10 -- /> A,A and maybe AK, AQ???? This too tight a range to assign here?

I miss flop and he checks, should i ever be betting here?

I chose to take the free card, missed again and check again hoping for a miracle.

Miss river and now he leads, should i always be calling here or just knock it on the head. Line check please. I think i was too passive. Will post results later on what he had but have a guess if you like.

Hand History #488079449 (17:41 05/03/2012)

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancewartic Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £12.34 xBig blind  £0.08 £0.12 £11.95   Your hole cards 9 9       joeee Fold     peteande30 Fold     DrSharp Raise  £0.24 £0.36 £9.33 jackblack_ Fold     frankie506 Fold     TOD19 Fold     ICEMAN240 Fold     wartic Fold     xRaise  £0.48 £0.84 £11.47 DrSharp Call  £0.32 £1.16 £9.01 Flop    4 A 4       xCheck     DrSharp Check     Turn    5       xCheck     DrSharp Check     River    7       xBet  £0.58 £1.74 £10.89 DrSharp Call

Comments

  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,462
    edited March 2012
    I probably bet the flop once checked to me, rep the ace, if he's got a pocket pair, he can't call, and if he's got AK/AQ, he would've probably bet for value.

    EDIT: Inb4 happy hour popup :D
  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited March 2012
    He has KK/QQ and hated the ace. He checks flop and turn for pot control and by the river knows you don't have it so he can squeeze a little value. I wouldn't be calling here unless I had history with the guy or seen him make some weird bets before.

    Basically the flop/turn is your best chance to win the hand. It would take 2 barrells though so 65p flop or turn then £1.40 turn or river.

    I prefer betting flop and turn at this level because that is your best chance of repping an Ace, although against better/thinking players it's good to check back flops from time to time and bet turn/river.

    As played just fold and move on :)
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited March 2012
    Pre looks ok as long as you know its no set no bet.

    Flop fine betting would be bluff and no need with made hand.

    Turn again fine.

    River tricky he might now be betting KK/QQ/JJ for value, close but I probz call.
  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: 3-bet pot NL8 pocket 9's line check 10 handed. Ta.:
    Pre looks ok as long as you know its no set no bet. Flop fine betting would be bluff and no need with made hand. Turn again fine. River tricky he might now be betting KK/QQ/JJ for value, close but I probz call.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    What.

    Like we are beat by his whole range so only way to win the pot is to turn our hand into a bluff.

    If he says oppo seems solid for that level, calling river is just burning money.
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited March 2012
    I think we all agree that by the time he's checked the turn it's unlikely he has an Ace unless he has three of them. The question then becomes what do you think of his pre-flop 3-betting range from the BB? If he is 3-betting KQ, KJ, QJ, etc some of the time, then you are beating some of his range but there aren't many pairs that we're beating anymore. If he 3-bets any pocket pair you can beat 22, 33, 66 and 88. So against a particularly laggy player, we can beat a significant portion of the range for this bet on the river.

    The thing is you've already told us he's not a laggy player but is pretty solid, so I don't understand the problem. Poker is all about forming ideas about our opponents and trusting those reads; that's the skill of the game. Your read tells you that you can't beat his range. Your post seems to be asking us for permission to go against your read, which is the same as asking us to tell you to ignore the skills you've built up from playing the game for however many years it's been. I won't be offering you that permission.

    Of course, you could always raise the river as a bluff. Raising is more fun anyway. :)
  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: 3-bet pot NL8 pocket 9's line check 10 handed. Ta.:
    He has KK/QQ and hated the ace. He checks flop and turn for pot control and by the river knows you don't have it so he can squeeze a little value. I wouldn't be calling here unless I had history with the guy or seen him make some weird bets before. Basically the flop/turn is your best chance to win the hand. It would take 2 barrells though so 65p flop or turn then £1.40 turn or river. I prefer betting flop and turn at this level because that is your best chance of repping an Ace, although against better/thinking players it's good to check back flops from time to time and bet turn/river. As played just fold and move on :)
    Posted by pryce6
    Thanks for the reply, i sort of knew where i had gone wrong in this hand before i posted but you beat me to my next question which was about how many times to fire. If the guy has KK or QQ or even JJ or 10 10 on this board they mostly call a bet on the flop and therefore will need more than one bullet to fire here. If he calls flop and turn bets do i shut down on the river or fire 3 barrels?
  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: 3-bet pot NL8 pocket 9's line check 10 handed. Ta.:
    Pre looks ok as long as you know its no set no bet. Flop fine betting would be bluff and no need with made hand. Turn again fine. River tricky he might now be betting KK/QQ/JJ for value, close but I probz call.
    Posted by Dudeskin8

    Pretty much my thought process at the time if i am honest but looking back i realise i probably should be repping ace here given reads and villains range. I think i may be a bit passive with this type of hand at micro stakes as loads of people will just call down with hands like KK, QQ and ignore the A on the flop as they marry their hand.

    Obviously i check call river to let him bluff but in hindsight, his 3-betting range has'nt changed throughout the hand so its still JJ+ imo probz.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited March 2012
    triple barrell
  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: 3-bet pot NL8 pocket 9's line check 10 handed. Ta.:
    I think we all agree that by the time he's checked the turn it's unlikely he has an Ace unless he has three of them. The question then becomes what do you think of his pre-flop 3-betting range from the BB? If he is 3-betting KQ, KJ, QJ, etc some of the time, then you are beating some of his range but there aren't many pairs that we're beating anymore. If he 3-bets any pocket pair you can beat 22, 33, 66 and 88. So against a particularly laggy player, we can beat a significant portion of the range for this bet on the river. The thing is you've already told us he's not a laggy player but is pretty solid, so I don't understand the problem. Poker is all about forming ideas about our opponents and trusting those reads; that's the skill of the game. Your read tells you that you can't beat his range. Your post seems to be asking us for permission to go against your read, which is the same as asking us to tell you to ignore the skills you've built up from playing the game for however many years it's been. I won't be offering you that permission. Of course, you could always raise the river as a bluff. Raising is more fun anyway. :)
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Yeah, spot on with your analysis. The problem i had with the hand is that i played it wrong. When i finish a session i look back over my hands and any i feel are interesting or just plain incorrect i sometimes post on here. I realised i probably should have bet the flop but then i thought about villains opening range and figured i would need multiple barrels to get him off KK,QQ hands which was going to be my next question but Pryce beat me to it. I was also upset at the call on the end, its obvious what the guy is holding really so it was just a donation. Not sure about the raise on the end,missed the boat when i checked the flop.

    Just wanted a little discussion on it. Thanks for the input. I'll play this better next time. lol.


    By the way he had QQ!
  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: 3-bet pot NL8 pocket 9's line check 10 handed. Ta.:
    In Response to Re: 3-bet pot NL8 pocket 9's line check 10 handed. Ta. : Thanks for the reply, i sort of knew where i had gone wrong in this hand before i posted but you beat me to my next question which was about how many times to fire. If the guy has KK or QQ or even JJ or 10 10 on this board they mostly call a bet on the flop and therefore will need more than one bullet to fire here. If he calls flop and turn bets do i shut down on the river or fire 3 barrels?
    Posted by DrSharp
    No worries. Yep spot on that he will always call one bet. Usually 2 barrells will be enough for KK/QQ/JJ to fold. If he calls 2 streets and flips KK/QQ then fair play, I probably wouldn't be 3x barrelling at this level.
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