In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : Sorry, I was just annoyed that only the player was blamed when the dealer has clearly made a mistake too. I think it's a shame that it's the players responsibility to compensate for the dealers incompetence at doing their job correctly Posted by Poker_Fail
Dealers are like referees in football - they are human, they make mistakes. There is no rule to compensate for that though.
There IS a Rule which says "It is the players responsibility to protect their hand at all times". If we think the Dealers are likely to make mistakes, all the more reason to protect our hand.
Tikay ive seen this event a few times and i agree with your ruling. However one similar event where the ruling i seen was different id like to ask about. In the event the player in seat 2 raises and has a card protector on his cards and the dealer takes the cards, what would the ruling be? in the event i seen of this the rule mentioned above was used claiming the player didnt protect his cards. Posted by The_Don90
That changes it COMPLETELY.
The Floor are summoned, & the player is required to name his EXACT TWO cards at first time of asking. (No second chances). If he does so, his cards can be recovered from the muck, & play of the hand continues, always providing no further action behind has taken place.
In this case, the player has acted correctly, so he does not get penalised.
If the player does not act correctly, he/she DOES get penalised.
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : That changes it COMPLETELY. The Floor are summoned, & the player is required to name his EXACT TWO cards at first time of asking. (No second chances). If he does so, his cards can be recovered from the muck, & play of the hand continues, always providing no further action behind has taken place. In this case, the player has acted correctly, so he does not get penalised. If the player does not act correctly, he/she DOES get penalised. Posted by Tikay10
I had a similar thing at Dusk till Dawn last year, I pushed after river & the dealer thought the other player had said fold & pushed the chips on the table to me. I then mucked my cards just before the other player said he had said call not fold.
The TD again ruled my hand was mucked so i lost the pot, wasn't too happy until the other player turned over a nut flush (which beat my flush) so he obviously did not say fold, dealer error but happy to accept the ruling as it happened, however if the other player had shown a lower flush than mine I would not have been happy.
I think Tikay was on that table too (night before SPT)
I should add - in answering Don's question - that the player WHISPERS the identity of the 2 cards. If he shouted it out loud, & everyone could hear, he might have a problem.......
There are some weird & wonderful rules in Live Poker.
Try this one.
You are playing Live Poker, & it is you to act.
The guy to act AFTER you - to your left, accidentally mucks his hand "out of turn".
The guy behind HIM now, caused by the "domino effect", also mucks his hand, too.
Having not much live play experience, I went aipf at the side event @ Blackpool SPT the other year on the 'bubble'. As I pushed ALL my chips over the line, which I thought was what you had to do, a hand came over my shoulder and pulled one of my chips back and placed it on my cards. I was in seat one and due to the lateness, the dealer could of mucked my cards and it would of been my fault for not protecting them.
The person who moved the chip back?....Tony Kendall! He does talk sense....sometimes....ish....maybe ☺
I had a similar thing at Dusk till Dawn last year, I pushed after river & the dealer thought the other player had said fold & pushed the chips on the table to me. I then mucked my cards just before the other player said he had said call not fold. The TD again ruled my hand was mucked so i lost the pot, wasn't too happy until the other player turned over a nut flush (which beat my flush) so he obviously did not say fold, dealer error but happy to accept the ruling as it happened, however if the other player had shown a lower flush than mine I would not have been happy. I think Tikay was on that table too (night before SPT) Posted by MacMonster
Quite right too, Ian I was indeed on that Table.
It is absolutely standard stuff in Live Poker.
I'm really not sure how Online Players handle the transition to "Live" - some just can't. Maybe it is because they can't blame the software, I don't know, but some do struggle to accept standard "Live" rules which have existed forever.
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : Dealers are like referees in football - they are human, they make mistakes. There is no rule to compensate for that though. There IS a Rule which says "It is the players responsibility to protect their hand at all times". If we think the Dealers are likely to make mistakes, all the more reason to protect our hand. Posted by Tikay10
That is the big problem I have with this, I hate watching football because the referees make appauling decisions when they could easily get video recognition within 4 seconds at most.
Rulings like this must put some people off playing live poker, me included (although I will eventually) makes it seem a lot lesss "fun".
Having not much live play experience, I went aipf at the side event @ Blackpool SPT the other year on the 'bubble'. As I pushed ALL my chips over the line, which I thought was what you had to do, a hand came over my shoulder and pulled one of my chips back and placed it on my cards. I was in seat one and due to the lateness, the dealer could of mucked my cards and it would of been my fault for not protecting them. The person who moved the chip back?....Tony Kendall! He does talk sense....sometimes....ish....maybe ☺ Posted by MAXALLY
The fact is, when we are "all-in" in Live Poker, we do not - repeat, NOT - have to move all of our chips across the line, UNLESS REQUESTED to by the dealer. In the late stages, when we have mountains of chips, it is bad etiquette & form so to do, as it wastes so much time.
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : That is the big problem I have with this, I hate watching football because the referees make appauling decisions when they could easily get video recognition within 4 seconds at most. Rulings like this must put some people off playing live poker, makes it seema lot lesss "fun". Posted by Poker_Fail
Yes, I completely understand that. But them's the Rules......
You will find as you get older - though not quite as old as me - you will come to accept "bad refereeing decisions" & the like are just part of life. You can whitter & chunter yourself to an early grave, but things go wrong sometimes, best to just shrug the shoulders & move on.
Getting upset rarely changes anything. It's like footballers arguing with the ref over a penalty, or an iffy yellow card - the ref ain't ever gonna change his mind. And that footballer ain't ever gonna be on Mastermind......
If you're sat in seat 1 or seat 10, keep your elbows into the dealer so he can't just reach past you. I've had one try to take my cards out from under my hand before. He was very apologetic when I asked him what he thought he was doing... lol
If you're sat in seat 1 or seat 10, keep your elbows into the dealer so he can't just reach past you. I've had one try to take my cards out from under my hand before. He was very apologetic when I asked him what he thought he was doing... lol Posted by BorinLoner
"LIKE".
Seat 1 & 10 (or the seat immediately either side of the Dealer) are the hot spots.
Good advice. Mr Loner.
You got no friends, then? You & me would get along fine, methinks.
Some years ago, the great Ali Mallu was in Seat 1, in Grosvenor Bolton, & the Dealer mucked his hand by mistake. Some aggro verbals go off, followed by some argy bargy handbag slapping type stuff, 6 of one, half dozen of the other sorta thing.
Ali goes home, & 2 days later, gets a letter, saying he is Banned from Grosvenor Casinos, ALLEGEDLY for "assaulting the dealer". (He said he just tickled him.....)
Now, sort this Ruling out. By now - 2 days later - Ali has made the Final of another Tourney in Blackpool, and I was in the same Final. It was a 2 day jobbie, we return on Day Two, 9 of us, to play the Final. And they won't let Ali Mallu in, they say he has been banned nationwide. (His ban was overturned a year later, & all is well with he & Grosvenor now).
Ali rings me at the Table from Reception & asks me to go see him, but I can't get involved in that sort of discussion, so Ali can't get in to finish the Tourney he paid £300 or whatever to enter the previoios day.
So, his chips are "in play", but he can't play.
The question, then, is what happens to his chipstack? Obviously, leaving them in play, advantages some, & disadantages others. Think about THAT one!
PS - I just looked it up on a Database, it was Saturday 30th December, 2006. 9th place is shown as "Name withheld". That was Ali. You can guess what donkey finished eighth, of course......
Try this one. You are playing Live Poker, & it is you to act. The guy to act AFTER you - to your left, accidentally mucks his hand "out of turn". The guy behind HIM now, caused by the "domino effect", also mucks his hand, too. Guess who gets penalised? Correct - YOU do - your hand is declared dead. Posted by Tikay10
Bizarre!
Where are these rules written down? Are they on any major casino group website? Or are players just supposed to know them?
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : That changes it COMPLETELY. The Floor are summoned, & the player is required to name his EXACT TWO cards at first time of asking. (No second chances). If he does so, his cards can be recovered from the muck, & play of the hand continues, always providing no further action behind has taken place. In this case, the player has acted correctly, so he does not get penalised. If the player does not act correctly, he/she DOES get penalised. Posted by Tikay10
So if this was pre-flop, and the player hadn't looked at his cards yet (as is quite rightly drummed into us on 865 regularly), despite the player doing absolutely nothing wrong he/she is effectively punished?
EDIT - Sorry - just realised I slightly misread the original post that the player concerned had raised, so he must have looked at his cards!
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : So if this was pre-flop, and the player hadn't looked at his cards yet (as is quite rightly drummed into us on 865 regularly), despite the player doing absolutely nothing wrong he/she is effectively punished? EDIT - Sorry - just realised I slightly misread the original post that the player concerned had raised, so he must have looked at his cards! Posted by FCHD
It IS pre-flop.
In the example quoted, "we" have NOT acted yet. We are still deciding what to do, when the two guys behind us mucked out of turn. So our hand is ruled "dead"......
Not sure how it would apply post-flop. The same, I guess.....
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : So if this was pre-flop, and the player hadn't looked at his cards yet (as is quite rightly drummed into us on 865 regularly), despite the player doing absolutely nothing wrong he/she is effectively punished? EDIT - Sorry - just realised I slightly misread the original post that the player concerned had raised, so he must have looked at his cards! Posted by FCHD
You got it.
Weird, eh?
The logic is that "we" had time to point out that the player behind us acted out of turn BEFORE the 2nd player did the same thing. Which is tosh, of course.
It is a standard rule in all Grosvenor Casinos, but fortunately or otherwise, it is NOT applied consistently, like most of their rules, I'm afraid.
I do have a little smile to myself when folks have a pop at Online Poker. Try playing "Live", & see what happens!
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : So if this was pre-flop, and the player hadn't looked at his cards yet (as is quite rightly drummed into us on 865 regularly), despite the player doing absolutely nothing wrong he/she is effectively punished? EDIT - Sorry - just realised I slightly misread the original post that the player concerned had raised, so he must have looked at his cards! Posted by FCHD
Thanks for the feedback everyone and im glad this thread has developed a healthy debate
Since i have begun live poker I always been told to protect my cards, and i do, without fail, usually with a chip. I never realised just how important this was i just did it as habit without really understanding why...
Having listened, I fully agree with tikay that it is the players responsibility to protect their cards. On this occasion, the player was clearly unhappy with the decision, but he used that annoyance positively and went on to win the mtt, showing great character. He told me after that he has never ever used a card protector and he has played the game for many years...
I wonder if he now will...
The dealer was also a little annoyed with herself and said sorry to the player after the mtt which i thought was nice. But, mistakes happen and she had been dealing non stop for 2 days it was about 3am, so anyone saying "sack the dealer" is being rediculous imo. Tikay is right tho, the main mistake was the player not protecting his cards and so this was a fair ruling.
In Response to Re: live ruling- thoughts please : Absolutely, Jon. But it remains the players responsibility to protect their hands. It is best that players understand that totally, & don't rely on there being a sensible TD, in a good mood. The rule is absolutely clear, & sacrosant. Posted by Tikay10
Absolutely, first and foremost you have to protect your hand.
But the 'rules are rules; cast in iron and stone never to be bent or flexible in any way' mindset can get annoying - most commonly when it comes from local regs jumping on a string bet from an inexperienced player - and that highlights that you mainly get it from players rather than tournament officials.
I think most licensed card rooms do have good staff who run poker games well and do make sensible decisions - but if they ever make a decision which is the common sense and fair ruling despite not being a strict interpretation of the rules, that usually seems to lead to at least half the table grumbling that it's the worse decision ever made and obviously 'wrong'. That doesn't effect the game - but it can get irritating when they're still dissecting it 2 hours later
... He told me after that he has never ever used a card protector and he has played the game for many years... I wonder if he now will... Posted by GREGHOGG
Funnily enough Sam Razavi said something in passing that I'd never thought about before - he said that he'd seen a lot of regular players not using card protectors and wondered if they thought it was some sign of weakness or naivety to have to use one. I don't know the reason but given how important it is to protect your hand it is a bit odd how many experienced players don't bother with something so simple.
But, mistakes happen and she had been dealing non stop for 2 days it was about 3am, so anyone saying "sack the dealer" is being rediculous imo Posted by GREGHOGG
Attention slip ups just shouldn't happen IMO, imagine if pod made a fundamental error due to lack of attention after a long day at work, 3 weeks later the bridge collapses killing 700 million people, that would be his fault and I **** hope he'd get fired if that ever happened!!
If a dealer makes mistakes often(ish) they should be gone!
Comments
There IS a Rule which says "It is the players responsibility to protect their hand at all times". If we think the Dealers are likely to make mistakes, all the more reason to protect our hand.
The Floor are summoned, & the player is required to name his EXACT TWO cards at first time of asking. (No second chances). If he does so, his cards can be recovered from the muck, & play of the hand continues, always providing no further action behind has taken place.
In this case, the player has acted correctly, so he does not get penalised.
If the player does not act correctly, he/she DOES get penalised.
I should add - in answering Don's question - that the player WHISPERS the identity of the 2 cards. If he shouted it out loud, & everyone could hear, he might have a problem.......
There are some weird & wonderful rules in Live Poker.
Try this one.
You are playing Live Poker, & it is you to act.
The guy to act AFTER you - to your left, accidentally mucks his hand "out of turn".
The guy behind HIM now, caused by the "domino effect", also mucks his hand, too.
Guess who gets penalised?
Correct - YOU do - your hand is declared dead.
It is absolutely standard stuff in Live Poker.
I'm really not sure how Online Players handle the transition to "Live" - some just can't. Maybe it is because they can't blame the software, I don't know, but some do struggle to accept standard "Live" rules which have existed forever.
It's tough out there.......
PS - Great to see you at the weekend.
Rulings like this must put some people off playing live poker, me included (although I will eventually) makes it seem a lot lesss "fun".
Weird, eh?
You will find as you get older - though not quite as old as me - you will come to accept "bad refereeing decisions" & the like are just part of life. You can whitter & chunter yourself to an early grave, but things go wrong sometimes, best to just shrug the shoulders & move on.
Getting upset rarely changes anything. It's like footballers arguing with the ref over a penalty, or an iffy yellow card - the ref ain't ever gonna change his mind. And that footballer ain't ever gonna be on Mastermind......
If you're sat in seat 1 or seat 10, keep your elbows into the dealer so he can't just reach past you.
I've had one try to take my cards out from under my hand before. He was very apologetic when I asked him what he thought he was doing... lol
Seat 1 & 10 (or the seat immediately either side of the Dealer) are the hot spots.
Good advice. Mr Loner.
You got no friends, then? You & me would get along fine, methinks.
Some years ago, the great Ali Mallu was in Seat 1, in Grosvenor Bolton, & the Dealer mucked his hand by mistake. Some aggro verbals go off, followed by some argy bargy handbag slapping type stuff, 6 of one, half dozen of the other sorta thing.
Ali goes home, & 2 days later, gets a letter, saying he is Banned from Grosvenor Casinos, ALLEGEDLY for "assaulting the dealer". (He said he just tickled him.....)
Now, sort this Ruling out. By now - 2 days later - Ali has made the Final of another Tourney in Blackpool, and I was in the same Final. It was a 2 day jobbie, we return on Day Two, 9 of us, to play the Final. And they won't let Ali Mallu in, they say he has been banned nationwide. (His ban was overturned a year later, & all is well with he & Grosvenor now).
Ali rings me at the Table from Reception & asks me to go see him, but I can't get involved in that sort of discussion, so Ali can't get in to finish the Tourney he paid £300 or whatever to enter the previoios day.
So, his chips are "in play", but he can't play.
The question, then, is what happens to his chipstack? Obviously, leaving them in play, advantages some, & disadantages others. Think about THAT one!
PS - I just looked it up on a Database, it was Saturday 30th December, 2006. 9th place is shown as "Name withheld". That was Ali. You can guess what donkey finished eighth, of course......
Bizarre!
Where are these rules written down? Are they on any major casino group website? Or are players just supposed to know them?
So if this was pre-flop, and the player hadn't looked at his cards yet (as is quite rightly drummed into us on 865 regularly), despite the player doing absolutely nothing wrong he/she is effectively punished?
EDIT - Sorry - just realised I slightly misread the original post that the player concerned had raised, so he must have looked at his cards!
In the example quoted, "we" have NOT acted yet. We are still deciding what to do, when the two guys behind us mucked out of turn. So our hand is ruled "dead"......
Not sure how it would apply post-flop. The same, I guess.....
Weird, eh?
The logic is that "we" had time to point out that the player behind us acted out of turn BEFORE the 2nd player did the same thing. Which is tosh, of course.
It is a standard rule in all Grosvenor Casinos, but fortunately or otherwise, it is NOT applied consistently, like most of their rules, I'm afraid.
I do have a little smile to myself when folks have a pop at Online Poker. Try playing "Live", & see what happens!
Since i have begun live poker I always been told to protect my cards, and i do, without fail, usually with a chip. I never realised just how important this was i just did it as habit without really understanding why...
Having listened, I fully agree with tikay that it is the players responsibility to protect their cards. On this occasion, the player was clearly unhappy with the decision, but he used that annoyance positively and went on to win the mtt, showing great character. He told me after that he has never ever used a card protector and he has played the game for many years...
I wonder if he now will...
The dealer was also a little annoyed with herself and said sorry to the player after the mtt which i thought was nice. But, mistakes happen and she had been dealing non stop for 2 days it was about 3am, so anyone saying "sack the dealer" is being rediculous imo. Tikay is right tho, the main mistake was the player not protecting his cards and so this was a fair ruling.
If a dealer makes mistakes often(ish) they should be gone!