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Some 2p/4p PLO Questions
ZedsDeadBa
Member Posts: 176
Is limping ever ok if not whats our bet size?
If its limped all around to us in the big blind with AAKK double suited and I put in a pot sized raise, half of piccadilly circus joins me in the flop anyway?????
Open utg 12p and the rest of trafalgar square joins me!
Flop comes J72 and my aces and kings are probably trash already!
Do I ever want to get it all in with AAKK pre or on the flop (if possible in plo) or am I waiting to improve.....A LOT?
Is my set of aces almost always folding on straightening board or my nut flush on a paired board etc??
Z.
Comments
It's a drawing game - no one folds
AA/KK mean nothing in PLO -
if u see AA/KK just raise pot - if you like your hand - raise pot
just raise pot or call and draw baby
I RAISE THE POT
Limping is much more acceptable in Omaha than Hold'em, although it doesn't mean we should be limping every hand either. Imagine we have 100bb and 4567ds UTG. Beautiful starting hand, but if we raise pot and someone decides to 3-bet pot, if we call then we've put a significant amount of money in the pot with 7 high OOP, and without the right flop, we're going to put a significant % of our stack in pre, then have to check/fold the flop - Even if we hit the flop, it's no guarantee we'll get any action. It's probably not a hand we should be open folding, either, but if we're raise/folding 4567ds we might as well have four 2's in our hand, so limping and being prepared to call a raise should it be cheap enough would probably be a better option than raising in that case.
Players at 4PLO will call because they've got 4 cards, and outdraws are a lot more common in Omaha than Hold'em. Imagine every Omaha hand = 6 Hold'em hands. If we get 5 calls in Omaha, that's like getting 30 calls in Hold'em, so if we don't improve on the flop, what do we think of our hand now? We should be raising with a hand like AAKKds, 100% of the time, but proceed with caution (probably just give up, actually) if you get multiple callers and don't improve on the flop.
Yes, AAKKds is the best starting hand statistically in Omaha, so we do want our money in pre-flop with it should that opportunity present itself, especially when we consider the range of hands we'll be getting it in against. At these stakes if we get the money in pre, we'll find ourself against "naked" aces or kings a lot of the time - By that, I mean Pocket Aces or Kings with no backup, so a hand like As Ad 9c 5h for instance. Omaha players at these stakes, for the most part, don't understand that in Omaha, we have good AA hands and bad AA hands - they just see AA in their hand and get as much money in as they can, like you would in Hold'em. We're also going to get our money in against KKxx and QQxx hands a lot of the time, against naked kings and queens we're a massive favourite with AAKKds.
On a straightening board with top set, it's not necessarily a snap fold, it's opponent dependant. If you're against a fish who'll get it in with TPTK, there's no reason to fold top set. Nut flushes on a paired board, same as before - some opponents will put money in with trips, or even 2 pair. I'm not saying call every time you have top set on a straightening board, but make sure that you know your opponent, and make your decision based on knowledge of your opponent. At the same time, it's worth mentioning that the second nuts isn't an auto-fold as people are capable of representing the nuts, especially if they have a nut blocker in their hand (e.g. 3 spades on board and someone has just the Ace of Spades in their hand).
Hope this helps (and also hope it's correct, I'm sure Talon will correct me otherwise, lol)
One essential thing in omaha is to bet your hands strong make people pay for there draws so no half pot bets!!!
Fold pre if you have junk so many call as its only 4p conserve your stack and then get it in good and strong!!
If you hit your set and get callers to your pot size bet and the flop turns a str8 draw or even a flush draw then dont be a non believer!!!!
Finally don't chase flush draws what are not the nuts or very close to it
Firstly there is nothing wrong with limping in PLO at all as long as you are aware of 2 things. These are hand strength and position. Position is more vital in omaha being such a drawing game so having it allows you total control of the pot whether to inflate it it or keep it under control. When talking about hand strength i am referring to the number of nut drawing hands that you have and not there relative strength. Ideally you want at least 3 nut drawing hands available to you before even considering entering the pot.So basically dont limp utg or make up in the sb with garbage hands.
If you have a good starting hand then you want to be raising the pot(preferably in position). This means that you will have the chance to win a much bigger pot if you do hit. The main thing to remember is though just because you rasied pre does not mean you should be auto c-betting any flop. Save the c-bets for the right flops and not ones that leave you with only a weak draw at best.
Any time you have a hand like AAKKds then you want to be allin pre if it is possible because you are as big a favourite here as you can be here. But you need to resisit the urge to 3-bet pre if it going to go multiway way and you can not get enough of your stack in pre. If at all possible you want to be getting it into a HU pot with at least a third of your stack committed, this will give you the opportunity to ship it all in on the flop.If you are multiway and miss the flop then you need to be holding back because there is a good chance that someone else has hitt the flop and you will be just throwing money away.
In omaha you want to be drawing as close to the nuts as possible. So you need to be careful when you have non nut hands because the possiblity of being up against a better is a lot more likely than in NLHE. This being said though against newer players this is a profitable place to be because a lot of them will struggle to fold bottom set on a flushing straightening board. So watch the table carefully and notice who overplays marginal hands to see if you can make the call/bet with these non-nut hands. But the basic rule is the more opponents the closer to nuts you have to be to make any sort of value in the hand.
At 2p/4p If you keep yourself to just playing good hands and nut hunting then you can still make a good profit because of the sheer looseness of the play. Use your knowledge of hand strength well and try as much as possible to restrict yourself to good position in the hand and you should be fine.
Hope some of this is useful. Feel free to ask more or ask for anything specific.
Incredible response thank you, I'll digest and respond on some pointers over the weekend.
Also a couple of hands for general consumption, comment and criticism.
1st. I got lucky o/p a set.
2nd hand, set of 9's ??
First hand: I'm never set mining with small pocket pairs in Omaha. Reason being that sets are a lot more common than in Hold'em, therefore, set over set is a lot more common, and a set of 5's is either going to win us a small pot or lose us a big pot.
If you had a hand like 5567 or 4556, preferably double suited. then playing that hand is much more acceptable, as you're not just looking to flop a set, you're looking to flop a set and a draw.
Also, Pocket 5's can never flop the nuts - Even if you flop top set, there's going to be possible straights, so I just avoid playing it altogether, unless I have a hand like above, where I can flop sets plus redraws, and freeroll anyone who gets their money in with a draw.
2nd hand: Got position, but other than that, not much going for it really.
Hand 2:My entire analysis of this hand will be based on 1 card the 6. It is known as a dangler, which means that it does not work with any other card in your hand. This means that immediately you have gone from 6 hands to 3 hands playable from the start, which is not good. Also one of your major hands you have left is the AK suited but this 6 also removes 1 of your outs for the flush which gives you 11% less chance of hitting your flush before you even begin. So not only does it not work with your hand at all it actively works against it by weakening the drawing potential. You need to avoid playing hands that include a dangler or ones that kill off potential outs for you. These are third of a suit or pocket trips. So all in all thisd is a hand i would play in an unraised pot in position but under no other circumstance