HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?

AMYBR

Will try to be brief.  Am much better Tplayer than cash.  Couldnt decide right line here, still cant.  Thoughts?

Playing HU vs a guy I dont like who holds over my in a certain game format as he is a station who runs uber good.  Kind of got into an argument where I basically said in a solid format he'd never win... Yes I can be a jerk (obv).

However I do hold over him in cash.  As he doesnt know how to bet his hands for value and simply plays his hands vs board.  HU cash wet dream.

Started off well and got him down to about £100 from starting £300 each.  But seems to have turned and think he has a slight lead.  Confidence slipping slightly but ..myeh. 

Ok....  The hand.  I have been making it £2.5 pretty much every hand from the SB HU.  Do so with K10o.  He flats and checks dark as he has done for the majority.

Kd 6d 4d.  I bet £4 and he tank raises me to £45.  Its never really a bluff, its pretty much always the Ad.  (have played HU with him alot).

I feel confident that if I ship it here he will call and I do currently have the best hand, but is 55/45 in his favour.

I want to beat him very badly! lol. 

Go for it here?

OR

Call IP and see if a D falls (knowing we wont put another penny in if it does)?

grantorino

Thats a pretty narrow range to give him, but if you are sure of it I prob call and ship over a bet or vbet myself a non A non diamond turn

What do you think you are 45% against? If its the bare Ad you should be a slight favourite I think

rancid

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

Thats a pretty narrow range to give him, but if you are sure of it I prob call and ship over a bet or vbet myself a non A non diamond turn What do you think you are 45% against? If its the bare Ad you should be a slight favourite I think
Posted by grantorino

call & v/b non D turn sounds cool

AMYBR

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

Thats a pretty narrow range to give him, but if you are sure of it I prob call and ship over a bet or vbet myself a non A non diamond turn What do you think you are 45% against? If its the bare Ad you should be a slight favourite I think
Posted by grantorino

Yeah your prob right.  Scale it back to A or Q D or made flush.  Lets just say I was working on the assumption it wasnt a made flush going to turn.  Ad = 9 + 3 (12x2.2x2) being 54%mark.  (It was the Ad fwiw. Ad6c for pr and NFD so after the fact slightly bigger % dog - even I can only soulread so much JOKE).  But seem oppo take this line alot before with similar hands.  Oh also felt confident he wouldnt fire turn if didnt improve, prob important.  Whether works in our favour or against if we flat flop I cant decide.  But since we are IP and can control pot size I suspect is good thing....beaneh would know........

I dont pretend to be a great deep stacks cash player, prob my weakest format.

Can we VB non D turn if he checks?  Do we really want to open ourselves up to a crai IP?

AMYBR

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

£4 then raises to £45 that is a mahooooooooooosive raise he may well have a of diamonds but my feeling his he could have a set here and protecting hes hand against a diamong on the turn or high diamond with king cant see how your ahead here
Posted by IDONKCALLU

If we put our opponents on made hands HU think we are going to have a very difficult time of it bud Never folding flop IP.

Because IP flatted to see what came/what bet I would see on turn.  But he quickly checks.  I dont really see betting as best but am prob wrong here if we are confident we are vs a draw, but stacks are set up perfectly for a crai w equity.

River is another brick, he quickly checks again.  I toy with idea of vb, but dont think he has anything to call with and still dont want to open that door.  As said Ad6c.

He seemed to tilt after this.  I won two big pots (one where he let me crack his set, going from <1%on flop to 30% @ turn courtesy of a free card) then got last 60bigs in on a race and won.

He was not happy.....I was though wheeeeeeeeee

grantorino

First I've said this to you before but dont think you can multiply outs by 2.2*2 to get equity on flop. I cant prove this or anything (again you've asked me before) but as far as I know you need to multiply by 4 with 2 cards to come, and even that needs to be reduced to something like 3.6 when number of outs gets big (more than 12 I think). Thats just what I've read a few places, am open to correction am certainly not certain of the 3.6 and 12 outs bit. 

How sure are you of your reads here? Like you seem really sure but dont want to reopen the betting. I can understand this, I wouldnt generally be firing turn or river, but if your read is that certain you prob should. I really doubt anyone like this guy ever folds to a turnbet, there is value there so take it. Again on river,I doubt he crai hardly ever, it might be worth firing small and hoping to get a stubborn call or snap off a bluff raise. I wouldnt normally recommend this, but it would seem to be the thing to do given your reads

AMYBR

We dont need to be too specific, with reads we strongly suspect we are flipping if we get it in on flop 5% either side vs range.

Yeah def missed a bet on turn or river for value/protection.  He def wont fold turn up to 2/3 pot with naked flush I think.  But as said, stacks are set up nicely for a crai semi bluff with plenty of equity + have to decide there if am against a made hand, whereas I can manage pot size IP going to river.

This is what I couldnt decide on.

Def a vl river bet tho.

LadyFingrs

what even is...

Do you have Td?

Reasons for thinking its ALWAYS Ad?

If its literally always Ad then ship it in or you're playing too high for comfort.

wayne1958

i dont wish to be rude but its a fold pre............. lol........ 

LadyFingrs

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

i dont wish to be rude but its a fold pre............. lol........ 
Posted by wayne1958

wat

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

i dont wish to be rude but its a fold pre............. lol........ 
Posted by wayne1958

I think this is a joke being carried over from another thread.

Just to be clear, in heads-up play open-folding the button with KT (or almost any other hand) is bad.

wayne1958

yes it was loner...

BorinLoner Posts: 446 First: 5/9/2011 Last: 16/4/2012

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?: i dont wish to be rude but its a fold pre............. lol........  Posted by wayne1958 I think this is a joke being carried over from another thread.

AMYBR

Dont worry I was keeping up

I think if someone says tha someone has a read on someone that they have played with frequently then its better to just to move forward with that assumption than just challenge it for the sake of it tbh.

Lagyfingers: getting in on flop has nothing to do with comfort or lack of.  No reason to get it in on a flip when we can manage potsize IP.  With the advantage of making our decision following whatever action we see from oppo on turn.

This deep wasnt sure on best line.  Have to feel flatting flop IP was right, but missed a bet on river.

LadyFingrs

I'm saying, it isn't ALWAYS the Ad.

Aiite even if its often 55/45, and you're infrequently drawing dead, this doesn't mean you have 55% equity. I was speaking in hypotheticals, like if he turned his hand face up and it was Ad7c, then shipping is the correct play.

I like flatting and re-evaluating, but almost always checking back the turn.

As the hand played out, turn is good (imo) but I think you always have the best hand on the river, and can comfotabley bet/call.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

I'm saying, it isn't ALWAYS the Ad. Aiite even if its often 55/45, and you're infrequently drawing dead, this doesn't mean you have 55% equity. I was speaking in hypotheticals, like if he turned his hand face up and it was Ad7c, then shipping is the correct play. I like flatting and re-evaluating, but almost always checking back the turn. As the hand played out, turn is good (imo) but I think you always have the best hand on the river, and can comfotabley bet/call.
Posted by LadyFingrs

300bbs deep I cant ever agree on shipping flop when flipping or drawing thin to dead at all.

grantorino

you say this is always Adx, then you get worried about him having a made hand on turn. If you are going to give him such a specific range then play accordingly. Which in this case means b/c turn, b/c river. Its an extremely narrow range though, and its usually impossible to narrow players ranges that much.

Dont really agree that you should be jamming flop if you know he has bare Ad. It will be profitable, but not always more profitable than calling. Especially when your read is so strong and you kill all implied odds

AMYBR

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

you say this is always Adx, then you get worried about him having a made hand on turn. If you are going to give him such a specific range then play accordingly. We are playing accordingly.  We want to get 300bbs in on flop when we are flipping x amount of time and drawing dead remaining x amount of time??, rather than manage pot size IP vs someone we read well?  Which in this case means b/c turn, b/c river. Its an extremely narrow range though, and its usually impossible to narrow players ranges that much. Dont really agree that you should be jamming flop if you know he has bare Ad. It will be profitable, but not always more profitable than calling. Especially when your read is so strong and you kill all implied odds
Posted by grantorino

As far as ranges go, what do we expect oppo to hold here?  As stated in OP, oppo checks dark.  We are either up against a flush draw, better/worse K or made hand.  HU discount set.

Even totally readless I go for draw and reassess @ turn

grantorino

I never said get it in on flop anywhere on this thread

You said he has Adx in your first post. Thats really specific, you seem to be backing off on that now. So if its not Adx 100% of time, what is your read? Like everyone knows its a draw some % and a better hand some %.
All Im saying if you make his range Adx ONLY then play optimally against that range. If its not, then we play differently

The fact he checks means nothing, when he raises 5xpot that means something. You think this means a draw, fine. We need to consider how often its a draw or something else, how he proceeds facing a raise or when we call with these hands

Readless I would definitely be controlling pot and definitely not 3betting flop

AMYBR

Lol so we are in agreement then

If you look back  I did scale back range to non NFD w/out over.  Being 9 outs rather than 12.  But still feel 0FE. 

Have to be honest instict was strong given history with oppo (and was right), but agree could easily have been 9 outs rather than 12 (when infact was 14 with nfd + pr).

Not backing off in anyway, as said scaled back range in 1st reply.  Just weighing up pros & cons of VB river vs weird crai on turn/river with equity.

Will worse call river after missing everything following b/c on flop?  Doubtful.  Will be induce action we wont be comfortable with....myeh maybe. 

LadyFingrs

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP?:

In Response to Re: HU 50/£1 cash game 300bs deep. Try and get it in on flop or manage pot size IP? : 300bbs deep I cant ever agree on shipping flop when flipping or drawing thin to dead at all .
Posted by AMYBR

Are you even reading what I said?

I said I LIKE FLATTING THE FLOP.

But, if he were to turn his hand LITERALLY face up, then shipping is obviously the correct play, and this is not up for debate, unless he was fishy enough to stack off on a blank turn with bare Ad.

AMYBR

Erm whats not up for debate? 

I already said I obv should vb river....

Not happy opening up equity crai on turn

But never getting it on on flop.

Am confused