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Too agressive?

DietChipsDietChips Member Posts: 77
edited April 2012 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Termiator1Small blind 300.00300.0017285.00
DietChipsBig blind 600.00900.0016265.00
 Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
   
GreenbudRaise 2400.003300.0017260.00
nezbeauFold    
beebaz1Fold    
Termiator1Fold    
DietChipsCall 1800.005100.0014465.00
Flop
  
  • 6
  • 9
  • Q
   
DietChipsCheck    
GreenbudBet 3825.008925.0013435.00
DietChipsRaise 7650.0016575.006815.00
GreenbudFold    
DietChipsMuck    
DietChipsWin 12750.00 19565.00
Just been looking through a few of my hands from a tournament I played in earlier and was just wondering if you guys think my raise was too much? Greenbud raised/bet quite a lot twice so I thought it would be a good move.

Could he have just been bluffing?

Comments

  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited April 2012
    3bet pre probz just shove after awful 4x raise UTG.

    As played on flop 100% check call, that flop can not get much dryer.

    When you raise he folds all bluffs, by calling he probably continues on turn.
  • step7step7 Member Posts: 298
    edited April 2012
    Flatting gives you much more chance to double up here. You'd clocked villain playing aggresively so he's likely to barrel a lot of turn cards. You still have 2 streets to get your stack in easily with the pot size.
  • DietChipsDietChips Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2012
    So check call would have been a lot better on the flop rather than a big raise, waiting for him to bet again?
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited April 2012
    Yup. Your hand is very safe and there's practically no card on the turn that is gonna scare you.
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited April 2012
    I 3b pre most of the time - this is ok tho vs certain opponents
    as played I'm never min raising here - if you were deeper it'd be ok but you give yourself no fold equity so villain is never coming over the top without a monster

  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited April 2012
    I agree with the general sentiment so far that you should 3-bet pre-flop, due to the difficulties of playing any hand out of position. By calling you lose value from the hands that would call a raise pre-flop but won't put in much more money when they miss the flop - AK, AQ, AJ, KQ - and hands that won't like overcards on the flop - JJ, TT, 99, 88, etc. You also give your opponent the chance to outplay or outdraw you on the flop. His position is very powerful so you need to negate some of that power by 3-betting, while also gaining value from your hand.

    As you didn't 3-bet pre-flop, you really shouldn't raise this flop. There's so little that he could be holding that's ever going to call your raise. He really needs to have two-pair, undersets, AA, KK or the remaining Queen in order to carry on in the hand. (That's a very narrow range) You've put in more than half of your stack so it's obvious that you can never fold now.

    In fact, if you were going to raise it would have looked much weaker if you'd have just shoved, because the min-raise for more than half of your stack looks so strong. But, as has been said, you should not be raising this flop.

    Speaking more generally, it's almost always a bad idea to min-raise after the flop. In a tournament it's fine and often advisable to min-raise before the flop in an unopened pot and I think this is where there is some confusion on Sky Poker. Pre-flop it's fine, after the flop it's not. It just serves no purpose unless there are some real meta-game issues which you think you can exploit. That will only apply in very specific circumstances and so the min-raise should really not be part of your regular game.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2012
    shove pre against an utg 4x open

    flat flop, if you really want to raise jam
  • jugglegeekjugglegeek Member Posts: 623
    edited April 2012
    3-bet pre flop. The only reason to flat pre would be if you have a very good reason to believe that he only 4x with AA/KK.

    You have chosen to call which is deceptive and have flopped the nuts. There is no way your opponent can now think you are so strong... unless of course you do something really strong like say check-min-raising...

    Seriously, this is pretty bad. Imagine you are the villian holding AQ. You raise pre, get called and then get check raised on a flop as dry as this. He can now only shove or fold given his stack size and if he folds he will still have /> 20BBs to play with.

    On the other hand if you check call on the flop there are any number of turn cards that can improve your opponent's hand and even more cards that he can represent.

    Call the flop and then check raise the turn. If he checks the turn back to you then on the river your stack size will be less than pot and you can ship it. Doing this increases your chances of stacking your opponent. The way you play it you only get the stack if your opponent has AA or KK
  • DietChipsDietChips Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2012
    Just a few things I'm not too sure of...

    What's a 3-bet
    The position 'system' and how some positions are stronger than others
  • jugglegeekjugglegeek Member Posts: 623
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: Too agressive?:
    Just a few things I'm not too sure of... What's a 3-bet The position 'system' and how some positions are stronger than others
    Posted by DietChips
    A 3-bet is where you make a 2nd raise on the same street. In this instance it would mean re-raising greenbud after he has raised to 2400. Usually a 3-bet pre flop would be to around 3 times the total PFR (pre-flop raise) so 7200. However that is around half your stack so you may want to make it smaller to induce a 4-bet all in (which you would have to call because you have put too much in already) or simply 3-bet over shove. You can also 3-bet on other street but these are less common in tournements because of small stacks.

    As for possition this is big issue and along with bet sizing is one of the parts of the game often overlooked by those new to the game.

    At a six-handed table the possitions are called as follows working clockwise from the button (dealer). Small blind (SB), Big blind (BB), Under the gun (UTG), Under the gun +1 (UTG+1), cut-off (CO) and button (BTN).

    UTG is prehaps the worst possition because you act first in the hand (before you know what the other players will do) and will more than likely have to act first after the flop as well. BTN is the best possition because no matter what happens pre-flop you get to see what everyone else does on the flop before you make your bet.

    The blinds are a special case because you get to act last pre-flop but will be out of possition post-flop. This is why most 3-bets are made from the blinds, because they often want to end the hand without a flop to avoid playing out of possition.

    Another thing to consider is hand strength. Your opening range (the hands that you will enter a pot with) should be much tighter from early possition (Good aces, big pairs) while from the button you can open with a much wider range (suited connectors, ace-rag, suited broadways). You should also consider this with your opponent's hand strength. When you come to guessing your opponents hand a player is more likely to have a strong hand if he opened from UTG than if he opened the hand from the button.

    In this example your villian made a very big raise (normally would be 2.5xBB - 3xBB not 4xBB) from UTG to his range should be very strong hands only.

    Read up on possition, read up on bet sizing, and think about what your opponent might have and how you would play the hand if you were in their possition with the hand(s) that you have assigned to them. You should do this every hand. Don't fall into the trap of only playing the strength of your hand. Here you thought "I have the nuts, time to bet hard." when what you need to be thinking is "I have a nearly unbeatable hand; what does my opponent have, and how can I convince him to put all his chips in the middle?"

    Enjoy the game and run good.
  • DietChipsDietChips Member Posts: 77
    edited April 2012
    Thanks a lot jugglegeek!

    Just taken some notes from that and plan to look in to it in a little more detail, it seems fair enough to understand though and I'll have it in front of me to refer to when playing until it's set in my mind.

    I've also just had 2 terrible double your money matches, think that's because I'm tired and not thinking about it too much though... I have a thread with a few of my worst hands
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