Bad luck or bad play.

gracie24

Not met vilain before.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Pipunch	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.94
garrysaund	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£0.92
	Your hole cards	10 K
kingzola06	Fold
mrssherrif	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.46
gracie24	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£3.83
MIKE1324	Fold
Pipunch	Call		£0.02	£0.16	£3.92
garrysaund	Check
Flop
		K 10 8
Pipunch	Check
garrysaund	Check
mrssherrif	Check
gracie24	Bet		£0.08	£0.24	£3.75
Pipunch	Call		£0.08	£0.32	£3.84
garrysaund	Fold
mrssherrif	Fold
Turn
		7
Pipunch	Check
gracie24	Bet		£0.32	£0.64	£3.43
Pipunch	Call		£0.32	£0.96	£3.52
River
		9
Pipunch	Check
gracie24	Check
Pipunch	Show	Q J
gracie24	Muck	10 K
Pipunch	Win	Straight to the King	£0.88		£4.40

 

Dudeskin8

Raise or fold pre.

Bet flop bigger even overbet.

Turn good.

River good. 

grantorino

raise pre

bet flop bigger

turn and river good

Pipunch

Hey it's me!

You made it too cheap for me to try and hit which is why i was even in the hand at all.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

Raise or fold pre. Bet flop bigger even overbet. Turn good. River good. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

why would folding be better than limping pre?

Pipunch

^ Well if he just limps in pre, and then bets big once he hits 2 pair I smell a rat and he doesn't get paid.

Yet if he raises 4x pre and then half pot on the flop i fold.

Dudeskin8

I'd rather have the hand HU IP personally so I can cbet when I miss and take it down most times (even at NL4). 

Limping for me is just too weak and involves getting coolers to inflict real damage plus pot is a lot smaller which makes getting value when you hit harder. 

If I was on Btn and facing 3 limps then limp along is better as more impied odds and best position but not here for me. 

EDIT : Plus obvious point of getting into good habits even at micros.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

I'd rather have the hand HU IP personally so I can cbet when I miss and take it down most times (even at NL4). 

Some pretty big assumptions there. How do you know you get it HU, and how do you know you take it down most times you miss. Raising also folds out some hands you dominate

 Limping for me is just too weak and involves getting coolers to inflict real damage plus pot is a lot smaller which makes getting value when you hit harder.

What does limping is too weak even mean? Is it that hard to get oppos at 4NL to pay you off with worse when you flop well
  If I was on Btn and facing 3 limps then limp along is better as more impied odds and best position but not here for me.  EDIT : Plus obvious point of getting into good habits even at micros.
Posted by Dudeskin8

The question was and still is why is folding better than limping? Is it weaker?Even if you have to inflict coolers to stack someone it doesnt mean limping isnt profitable. I agree raising is better than limping

grantorino

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

^ Well if he just limps in pre, and then bets big once he hits 2 pair I smell a rat and he doesn't get paid. Yet if he raises 4x pre and then half pot on the flop i fold.
Posted by Pipunch

Is this some sort of joke?

You dont call a big bet on flop but you call a psb on turn oop on a card that significantly reduces your implied odds

Also you call a 4x raise oop with QJ and then fold an oesd to a 1/2 pot bet?

Pipunch

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play. : Is this some sort of joke? You dont call a big bet on flop but you call a psb on turn oop on a card that significantly reduces your implied odds Also you call a 4x raise oop with QJ and then fold an oesd to a 1/2 pot bet?
Posted by grantorino

No i was talking hypothetically. If he bets big pre i wouldn't have even played the hand. What i'm saying is in general if someone DID call a big bet pre they should then fold on that flop with a C-bet.

Letting me in cheap + letting me see the flop cheap + letting me see the river cheap = loss.

Big bet = win.

I don't see how what i'm saying is stupid.

SHANXTA

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play. : No i was talking hypothetically. If he bets big pre i wouldn't have even played the hand. What i'm saying is in general if someone DID call a big bet pre they should then fold on that flop with a C-bet. Letting me in cheap + letting me see the flop cheap + letting me see the river cheap = loss. Big bet = win. I don't see how what i'm saying is stupid.
Posted by Pipunch

to put it simply to c/c a pot bet with that hand on that turn is bad

Lambert180

Sorry I haven't read any replies because there's just too many so here's my 2pence.

I don't mind the limp behind pre, I personally probably either raise or fold (more likely raise).

Definitely overbetting the flop, you're gonna get paid off by probably any King

Nice bet on the turn, and yeah an easy check back on the river.

(horrible river card)

Dudeskin8

Maybe not HU but that depends on what the calling limit of the table is, obz you raise more the more people call. Cbetting is bluffing but people do fold when they completely miss, some don't but that depends on reads, still rather have that option than not.

You say raising folds out hands we dominate well in that case do we just limp behind all our strong high card hands AK/AQ/AJ/KQ etc? Of course raising folds out hands you dominate but at this level it often doesn't, all worse Kx will still call after limping plus random SC's.

The main thing though is I don't think it's going to be profitable longterm as pots will be mulitway a lot more often, therfore expert skill required to establish when you're ahead or not facing action on TP boards in limped pots which most at NL4 don't have (you might have that skill but many others could start making mistakes). Also 4/5-way the definition of nuts (in limped pots) is harder to define, so are we looking for 2pair minimum (50-1) as getting crazy with TP will be trickier (HU/3-way we can be more sure).

Plus even when you cooler someone there's no reason why they can't cooler you too so there's possible reverse implied odds (many beginners play monsters VERY slow so you could end up value betting yourself in some spots). 

All this for me just makes folding better than limping but of course raising just gets rid of all this and makes da game a lot easier. 

step7

Definite raise preflop! Pip gettting 7:1 to complete their blind, they have to see a flop at that price.

Unlucky but you butchered the flop and your plan to keep them in the hand backfired. Play your value hands fast no need to be trappy at NL4 - the board is drawy bearing mind what the limpers are most likely holding.

Turn bet ok, a little bigger would have offered even worse price to all the draws that have landed. WD checking behind on the river, used to see NL4 players bet/stacking off here because they have a "sexy" hand.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

Maybe not HU but that depends on what the calling limit of the table is, obz you raise more the more people call. Cbetting is bluffing but people do fold when they completely miss, some don't but that depends on reads, still rather have that option than not. You say raising folds out hands we dominate well in that case do we just limp behind all our strong high card hands AK/AQ/AJ/KQ etc? Of course raising folds out hands you dominate but at this level it often doesn't, all worse Kx will still call after limping plus random SC's. The main thing though is I don't think it's going to be profitable longterm as pots will be mulitway a lot more often, therfore expert skill required to establish when you're ahead or not facing action on TP boards in limped pots which most at NL4 don't have (you might have that skill but many others could start making mistakes). Also 4/5-way the definition of nuts (in limped pots) is harder to define, so are we looking for 2pair minimum (50-1) as getting crazy with TP will be trickier (HU/3-way we can be more sure). Plus even when you cooler someone there's no reason why they can't cooler you too so there's possible reverse implied odds (many beginners play monsters VERY slow so you could end up value betting yourself in some spots).  All this for me just makes folding better than limping but of course raising just gets rid of all this and makes da game a lot easier. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

I would think at 4NL its pretty easy get called by worse, but its not as clearcut as when we hold AK etc. This particularly applies postflop, are we really happy to felt KT on a K high board all the time?

Yeah we need to play some multiway poker sometimes, but TP will still be good a lot in a limped pot and we have decent position so can apply some pot control usually. Might sound a bit like amybr here but I think we should back ourselves to play as well as other players in good position with a reasonable hand. Yeah beginners play monsters slowly, they also play weak hands slowly

I think raising is better than limping, but either way we have to play some postflop poker 

Dudeskin8

What does 'felt KT on a K high board' mean?

Also on the hitting we flop a pair 1/3rd of the time and that could be on a 6-T-Q / K-A-6 flop where it's fairly useless in getting very well paid and even when we get lucky as in hand above oppo could have air and just simply fold. So for me limping is gonna be -EV compared to folding and surely a decent leak longterm unless you run really well. 

Overall imo Raising > folding > limping, with the first option playing poker rather than just bingo. 

grantorino

felting it means going broke

We also miss flop/hit middle pair when we raise pre,our bluffs wont always get through, its still pretty useless for getting paid on type of boards you mention, villain still can have air and c/f but yeah raising is better. Getting very well paid even when we flop top pair might be difficult also, but its 4nl maybe not.

If it goes multiway we wont need to hit that often, players will pay us off with worse when we hit. If its not multiway we can still bluff.

I can see you can say raise or fold in that if its profitable to limp its nearly always going to be more profitable to raise, so we shouldnt ever be limping. But if you are going to limp behind some hands I dont think KTs in good position is that bad of one to choose to do so with, and think you can do so profitably.
 
Also describing limping behind as playing bingo is just being silly imo, its no more bingo than when you advocate limping 33 behind here, although it wont be as lucrative

Dudeskin8

When we raise pre it's usually 3-handed if not HU so bluffs/cbets will get through more often, limping often means it goes down to showdown unless we start betting into limped pots multiway which ain't gonna be of much use having not defined any range at all preflop and so we rely on hitting. 

Yes players will pay off with worse but they would do the same had we raised pre and then pay off bigger bets, and on hitting once again is that 2pair+ or just TP?

If limping ever is right I'd personally want at least 2 limpers before me but even then I'd rather raise with a hand I believe is ahead of their limping range and position.

With 33 there's a clear plan, hit set or nothing (and also much more chance of that event happening), KT there's always going to be lots of variables and multi-way without hitting a 50-1 shot 2pair we're never gonna win a really substantial pot (TPWK multiway is never great) and even when we do other people could have bricked.

gillyboy

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play. : No i was talking hypothetically. If he bets big pre i wouldn't have even played the hand. What i'm saying is in general if someone DID call a big bet pre they should then fold on that flop with a C-bet. Letting me in cheap + letting me see the flop cheap + letting me see the river cheap = loss. Big bet = win. I don't see how what i'm saying is stupid.
Posted by Pipunch

 I agree totally here !!!

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play.:

In Response to Re: Bad luck or bad play. :  I agree totally here !!!
Posted by gillyboy

How come you're posting on a hand from 6 months ago?