Post-flop advice.

Pipunch

So i know what starting cards to play, in what position and everything. I know to play them aggressively at NL4. All is good.

However i think most of my problems are coming from not hitting post flop.

Eg, i have AK, open to 32p. Get a call. Flop comes 8 3 6 rainbow. I bet again, 3/4 pot. Get a call. I know it's astonishingly hard to get anyone off a hand at NL4 if they've hit any part of the board, but surely i can't just be binning anything that doesn't connect?

I seem to be just giving up after my flop bet doesn't get through and then am attempting to check it down. Any advice? I seem to be burning some money doing this.

Woldulp

I have this problem too – I think maybe bet less pre-flop then the cont. bet is cheaper – I’m no expert but opening for 32p at NL4 seems a bit high?

Pipunch

See the problem with betting less is you can have up to all 5 other players calling at say 4x. Then it becomes bingo, them extra 2/3 BB's in the raise force most rubbish out of the pot. Obviously it depends what sort of table i'm on but most loose players at this level wiill call 4x with anything.

Woldulp

I think if someone calls 32p then you are up against a high pocket pair so they will not go away on that flop so cont. bet is pointless?

gracie24

Difficult one but oop a person could trhink this was a donk bet and calls with a high card or pp to see if you bet again. If you just check, often they will check behind. The next card may help but if they bet out then you have saved 3/4 of a pot bet. people do call 6x bets with pocket pairs in position. 

Pipunch

In my experience they rarely have a pocket pair. In a game i'm in at the moment my pre flop 6x was called with 10 7. I continued betting when i hit trips on the flop and he made a straight on the river....how on earth do you combat that?!

Woldulp

Guess there is not much that can be done but I’d say someone who calls 6x with 10 7 is exactly the player you want to be against – what’s the player id – I’ll keep an eye out J

Pipunch

Oh yeah i love these players but my problem is what to do if i connect with nothing.

Woldulp

I suppose it depends on the story you are trying to tell. If I’m your opponent and have say pocket 9s on that 8 3 6  flop I’m probably going broke and it’s just bad luck if you have higher pocket pair

rancid

c bet missed AK flop - then give up if called and no improvement
the bigger your pre flop raise, the bigger you c bet
at NL4 - don't mind not c betting flops you miss - abso fine
because your raising more pre at NL4 for value 100% of the time then c betting a lot will cost you money

Also don't worry about raising 5x with big hands and raising 3x with not so big hands - they never notice )

pomfrittes

   +1, listen to rancid, he knows what he is talking about.

Dudeskin8

I'd say when cbetting try and be in position as much as possible and vs as few players as possible. 

So for example if you raise out the blinds after a few limps and see a 5-7-8 (double suited, not matching your cards suits at all) flop OOP against two players IMO it is fine to check fold as betting has a very small chance of getting through as it connects with there hands a lot more.

However on say a Q-2-2 (rainbow) flop I don't mind a cbet even possibly 3-handed as it's harder for them to connect with it so more chance of it getting through.

Also in general I found when in position a cbet of half pot is enough to get the job done, no need to keep your cbets the same as your value bets as no one pays attention.

Finally you mention a few posts up that you raise more to make people fold out rubbish, this is certainly not true as you want those calls, what you don't want is a pot 4/5-way with a hand like AK which is why you raise more.

grantorino

I wouldnt be a huge fan of 8x pre with AK, no matter how they play.

cbetting Q22 is a bit meh if you want a fold, if they fold you have best hand

Dudeskin8

If they fold pairs 33-JJ we had worst hand which is good for me, also rather just take it down then give free cards to random 67/89 type hands or at worst charge those hands to hit. 

Woldulp

The p/f raise was 8x so I think that narrows down what you are up against considerably?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Post-flop advice.:

If they fold pairs 33-JJ we had worst hand which is good for me, also rather just take it down then give free cards to random 67/89 type hands or at worst charge those hands to hit. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

There are reasons to cbet it. Dont want to derail entire thread. But betting it to shut down if called is getting pretty close to betting for info. 33-JJ dont fold ever to one barrell. Just saying you have the best hand a lot

Dudeskin8

And say if we cbet with KJ/KT and get AK/AJ/AT/A9 and down to fold that's bad too?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Post-flop advice.:

And say if we cbet with KJ/KT and get AK/AJ/AT/A9 and down to fold that's bad too?
Posted by Dudeskin8

You know very well making better hands fold is good.

I never said dont cbet. I have a good idea where you are leading with above post, but this thread isnt about cbetting AK on Q22. If you really want to discuss it open a new thread or pm me

Dudeskin8

This thread is about cbetting. 

I just gave a seperate example, of course Q22 is different to 836 rainbow board mentioned in OP but that doesn't mean you can't discuss it here, I'm pretty sure it will still help him/other readers/(heck even me by the looks) if other spots are discussed.

So why is cbetting with AK on Q22 flop a bad idea?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Post-flop advice.:

This thread is about cbetting.  I just gave a seperate example, of course Q22 is different to 836 rainbow board mentioned in OP but that doesn't mean you can't discuss it here, I'm pretty sure it will still help him/other readers/(heck even me by the looks) if other spots are discussed. So why is cbetting with AK on Q22 flop a bad idea?
Posted by Dudeskin8

This thread seems to be pretty much a moan about 4NL players not folding apart from your (and maybe rancids) contribution, which I think has some good advice in it.

I never said cbetting AK on Q22 was bad, and its not bad a lot of the time imo.

Why do we cbet?
1. For value. Possible here imo, if we are one and done though we need to know 2 streets check through a lot
2. a bluff. Pretty bad here if you are only firing 1 bullet

So for the 2 primary reasons of betting firing one bullet and shutting down doesnt look great without very specific reads imo.

However:
3. We can protect our hand. Im not a big believer in betting for protection but it isnt a bad idea if we think worse hands prob wont give us value unless they improve to beat us on later streets
4. It balances our range. How important that is at 4NL is questionable 
5. we can fire more than one barrell
6. It might stop us making bigger mistakes later in hand.

AK is likely to be best hand a lot on that board though, so we should at least think about it before we decide to cbet if we are basically turning our hand into a bluff and giving up if called

OP, I think raising 8x with AK is prob a bad idea, yeah they will call with worse, but you dont seem confident enough postflop to make this work for you. All the 4NL regs will disagree, but I think raising less and leaving more room for postflop poker is a good idea, where you will be a bigger favourite when you flop well

Dudeskin8

Another thing for me is if we opt to check then random non-pair hands worse than ours can take a stab even half-pot or less which forces us to either station down with AK high hoping we're good or fold the best hand.

Betting and getting worse to fold isn't great but the alternative means we just hope to god they don't bet on turn or river, after seeing us check flop thinking we aren't interested in the pot, or again call those turn/river bets believing we're good. 

Also a good chance of value like you say people could get stubborn with some random high cards then shut down when miss on later streets and probz win at showdown. 

Plus we do have pair outs so never completely dead even if called.