N L10 - 200bb deep - AA

rancid

Really not sure here, no reads - oppos a bit loose pre but seems ok - not a manaic at least
Not sure what oppo donks here, I raise for value from hands that flat
When oppo shoves, I am like WHAT!

Anyone folding

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
demondave	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£6.25
jagged	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£20.28
	Your hole cards	A A
rancid	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£22.14
belfastspu	Fold
marcus191	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£19.61
Prossbag88	Fold
demondave	Fold
jagged	Call		£0.20	£0.95	£20.08
Flop
		7 8 J
jagged	Bet		£0.40	£1.35	£19.68
rancid	Raise		£1.28	£2.63	£20.86
marcus191	Fold
jagged	All-in		£19.68	£22.31	£0.00
rancid

percival09

readless it probably should be a fold - but I'd still call lol

I don't think he's ever donking Jx here, never mind shoving over a raise with Jx

I'd say you're beat, J8 def!!

DOHHHHHHH

Marcus still got a 97.93% VPIP?

+1 to above, it's a fold, but I call. 

jugglegeek

Ugh!!! Pretty tough spot but I think I might find the fold button. It looks pretty much like a big draw who wants desperatly to gamble by getting it all in on the flop. Maybe QsTs or some kind of OESFD type 15 outta. However I don't think there's many open ended draws that would make sense. 5s6s kind of makes sense but 69 doesn't. It's just as likely to be a set or T9 for the made straight. Vs a flush draw you have about 65% equity and this is the best case scenario. I'd say it's better than one pair often enough to make this a -ev call. Just fold and make notes. But call if he does this again.

rancid

In Response to Re: N L10 - 200bb deep - AA:

Marcus still got a 97.93% VPIP? +1 to above, it's a fold, but I call. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

mmmm BUT should we call versus possible range lalalalalalalalalal

VPIP must be directed towards perc, bit confused as my name is Marc MUWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

KAM99

Think this if fold in most cases with no information to go on. IE seen him do this with TPTK or even doing it with any pair etc. I don't like put my whole stack on the line post flop agains this type of action with only a pair. To much can be ahead of use here. Set, 2 pair, straight, and even if he has something like pair and flush draw, smaller overpair, or straight/flush draws thats about the best we can be hoping for. I say better spots to be getting it in even against an agro villian, UNLESS as I said i've seen him make this type of play with silly hands to date.

I quite often find at low stakes shoves are quite often strong because they hope someone will be silly enought o call it with a worse hand. You may have been ahead in this hand, but think better spots even if it may feel bad folding.

grantorino

Do you have reads on what he flats? Otherwise dont really like raising flop to fold to a shove

I call, he can have a ton of draws pair+draw combos, and we have some equity v 2pair hands. I might just flat that board this deep thougg

pod1

call a prey he turns qq/kk :-)

Dazler

definate fold shame you didnt have an A spades lol then maybe......... nah!

9-10 spades maybe

rancid

In Response to Re: N L10 - 200bb deep - AA:

Do you have reads on what he flats? Otherwise dont really like raising flop to fold to a shove I call, he can have a ton of draws pair+draw combos, and we have some equity v 2pair hands. I might just flat that board this deep thougg
Posted by grantorino

Well I only raise because worse will flat, and I ain't giving cheap cards to this donk blocker bet - draws + Jx that flat and give me value here for my hand

funny thing is 100bb i snap, 200bb twists me around the other way to a fold

undecided if the raise is bad or the fold is bad

KAM99

In Response to Re: N L10 - 200bb deep - AA:

In Response to Re: N L10 - 200bb deep - AA : Well I only raise because worse will flat, and I ain't giving cheap cards to this donk blocker bet - draws + Jx that flat and give me value here for my hand funny thing is 100bb i snap, 200bb twists me around the other way to a fold undecided if the raise is bad or the fold is bad
Posted by rancid

The raise is always right with a draw heavy board and a fairly weak donk bet on flop. However, can be lot of reasons for a donk bet, and its not always a blocker. Sometimes its to start building a pot with a made hand in case they think they might get out drawn and don't want to risk a check behind. For me the weak donk bet folllowed by a shove to your reraise screams strength and he didn't want to scare you off totally with a bigger donk bet.

Yes, he could have draws and make similar play with flush draw and overs, but in this spot I think thats the best case you could hope to face other than overcards like KK. But if he had something that strong wouldn't he be 3 betting you preflop? For me nothing I hate worse than getting stacked with just a pair, its bad generally, even if its over pair. Not saying never would I do it, just that in this case I got a feeling he has it.

rancid

In Response to Re: N L10 - 200bb deep - AA:

tbh grantorino not many would flat here i think u only saying this coz rancid got jammed on most people would raise here almost 90 per cent of time just a sick spot
Posted by IDONKCALLU

More concerned with that oppo jams than flats flop raise with  -
could random read and say draw, but feels more like 2 pr
doubt sets jam or flopped straights

can't see oppo doing this with fd

only draw is the big combo draw

o well, I folded - so if you wanna try this move against me I fold 100% of the time ) meh

readless is a poker crime

@GT do we really flat donk leads readless

-Typhoon-

I think it's a fold here, you've let them see the flop for next to nothing. Prob got the straight and wants to  close the pot down there and then.

Based on who's sat at the table, i would mostly be limping pre knowing your getting at least one them opening to 3xbb or you should be opening much bigger.

Good fold tho

Paul

grantorino

if we raise to fold to a 3bet, we need to know we beat the portion of his range that flats and lose to the range that raises. We beat a lot of hands that might continue, but do we know he only flats fds, one pair hands etc. Readless its kinda hard to be specific that he calls wide and only raises narrow, which is what we need for raise/fold>call

Calling allows him a free card, but it allows us pot control  and play thru streets ip with a hand with showdown value, keeps his range wider as well. We will have to make tough decisions sometimes, but that is better usually than turning AA into a bluff or getting it in in a situation where we are a dog (which both seem possible here), so I would consider flatting on this board


raise/fold may be ok here if you know enough about how randoms play at 10NL, but without reads I would be either raising with the intention of getting it in or flatting

KAM99

In Response to Re: N L10 - 200bb deep - AA:

imo its awfull to flat here like u said flush draws out gotta make them pay i might be bad i reckon the opponent has 10 q spades so gut shot str8 draw and flush draw in that case i dnt know the maths but are u fav if that is the case ?
Posted by IDONKCALLU

If he had Q10 spades it would be a coin flip with AA about 52% favourite. When you factor in all the other possible hands he may have like a pair and the flush draw, the straight, the straight + freerolling flush, 2 pair, a set or just the flush draw there are a boat load of things you don't beat right then. Best cases he is mental and shoving top pair, or is shoving a straight or flush draw on their own. On that balance I'd not feel to much shame folding in this spot, even though it would hurt a little and not one I'd do to often of coruse, as sometimes you got to hit call and close eyes, but not sure this was one.

My personal thoughts is that he had two pair to shove like this, trying to push people off draws maybe. Would make the  most sense. Not my way, but my guess as to what he might have to shove so, unless he had the nuts and thought he was going to get a call.  Only other hand he may play this way is two over cards and the flush draw.