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I hate rag aces!

V6CoopV6Coop Member Posts: 12
edited May 2012 in The Poker Clinic
I'm a newbie having only played a couple of months but i think I'm learning quicky. Been playing a £300 GTD bounty hunter tonight and came 1st out of 212 for £24.80 in head prizes and £57.24 prize. It was a £2.00 + .30 buyin so I'm well chuffed! :)

But... i rally stuggle to play rag aces. Do i limp in on the blinds or reraise? Do i raise or fold UTG? It seems whatever i do it's wrong! I think i missed about 3 or 4 Ace trips because i folded...

Example 1.


PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
V6CoopSmall blind 2000.002000.00121528.12
TracypantsBig blind 4000.006000.0099020.00
 Your hole cards
  • A
  • 5
   
cleverkevFold    
Blkw1dDoRaise 12000.0018000.0079815.00
henv07Fold    
V6CoopCall 10000.0028000.00111528.12
TracypantsFold    
Flop
  
  • 7
  • K
  • 8
   
V6CoopCheck    
Blkw1dDoBet 16000.0044000.0063815.00
V6CoopFold    
Blkw1dDoMuck    
Blkw1dDoWin 28000.00 91815.00
Blkw1dDoReturn 16000.000.00107815.00

Comments

  • V6CoopV6Coop Member Posts: 12
    edited April 2012

    Hand History #512727273 (21:29 29/04/2012)

    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    delboy21Small blind 10.0010.001970.00
    EDNEMBig blind 20.0030.001980.00
     Your hole cards
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/club.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="club">A
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">5
       
    V6CoopFold    
    archietinoCall 20.0050.001980.00
    oilyragRaise 60.00110.001670.00
    https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/hhdealer.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; background-position: 100% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; margin: 0px" class="dealer">magmunchFold    
    delboy21Fold    
    EDNEMFold    
    archietinoCall 40.00150.001940.00
    Flop
      
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="diamond">A
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="heart">9
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="heart">10
       
    archietinoCheck    
    oilyragBet 150.00300.001520.00
    archietinoCall 150.00450.001790.00
    Turn
      
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="heart">A
       
    archietinoCheck    
    oilyragBet 225.00675.001295.00
    archietinoCall 225.00900.001565.00
    River
      
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">8
       
    archietinoAll-in 1565.002465.000.00
    oilyragAll-in 1295.003760.000.00
    archietinoUnmatched bet 270.003490.00270.00
    archietinoShow
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/club.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="club">J
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: #ffffff; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">Q
       
    oilyragShow
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="spade">A
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; display: block; border-image: initial; width: 15px; text-align: center; font-size: 0.9em; background-position: 1px 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; border-width: 1px; border-color: #9bc3e5; border-style: solid" class="heart">K
       
    archietinoWinStraight to the Queen3490.00 3760.00
  • V6CoopV6Coop Member Posts: 12
    edited April 2012
    Sorry torally failing at pasting my 2nd hand for some reason... It was A5o that i folded and hit 3x Ace on the flop and turn but would have been busted by Straight to the Queen.
  • _ARAZI__ARAZI_ Member Posts: 549
    edited April 2012
    well done on your win and well done for folding rag aces. keep doing it mate and you wont go far wrong
  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited April 2012
    The general rule with rag aces is what I got taught a few years ago and took to heart. Rag aces will either win you a small pot or lose you a lot. And this is very often the case because if there is an ace out and they don't have one or something else that will keep them interested they will fold, and if they do you are often out kicked. Soon as you drop below A10 the value of the ace loses value dramatically and while A2-A5 pick up wheel potential, its still a long shot and so they are mine fields to play. Short of flopping a straight (low end) or two pair you'll always feel uncomfortable with action against you with them.

    So UTG.. Never limp, never raise, fold them. Far to likely you get called or reraised by a better hand. You can certainly consider using them for a raise if first into the pot and in very late postion like the CO or BTN, but even then I'd be treating them as blind stealing hands over going silly with them if you get called. YOu certainly should not really be calling with them ever, and certainly not OOP.

    Only time they may increase their value is of course if the table is more short handed while coming up to bubble or final tables etc where you may be down to 3 players, and then well any ace is often good, but again play it smart with postion preferably and try to limit pot size if you get action. Lot of it comes down post flop play as to how you do it. Either way, general rule is rag aces are bad and will get you into trouble way more often than they win you a big pot. Of course this is my opinon on them, though one shared by fairly large percentage I'd think.

    EDIT: Oh and grats on the win. Was it your first decent size field win? Always nice those if it was. :D
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: I hate rag aces!:
    The general rule with rag aces is what I got taught a few years ago and took to heart. Rag aces will either win you a small pot or lose you a lot. And this is very often the case because if there is an ace out and they don't have one or something else that will keep them interested they will fold, and if they do you are often out kicked. Soon as you drop below A10 the value of the ace loses value dramatically and while A2-A5 pick up wheel potential, its still a long shot and so they are mine fields to play. Short of flopping a straight (low end) or two pair you'll always feel uncomfortable with action against you with them. So UTG.. Never limp, never raise, fold them. Far to likely you get called or reraised by a better hand. You can certainly consider using them for a raise if first into the pot and in very late postion like the CO or BTN, but even then I'd be treating them as blind stealing hands over going silly with them if you get called. YOu certainly should not really be calling with them ever, and certainly not OOP. Only time they may increase their value is of course if the table is more short handed while coming up to bubble or final tables etc where you may be down to 3 players, and then well any ace is often good, but again play it smart with postion preferably and try to limit pot size if you get action. Lot of it comes down post flop play as to how you do it. Either way, general rule is rag aces are bad and will get you into trouble way more often than they win you a big pot. Of course this is my opinon on them, though one shared by fairly large percentage I'd think. EDIT: Oh and grats on the win. Was it your first decent size field win? Always nice those if it was. :D
    Posted by KAM99

    +1

    Folding A10 UTG is no problem
  • V6CoopV6Coop Member Posts: 12
    edited April 2012
    Thanks guys. That's actually exactly what I've seen when playing them so it's quite interesting there is a rule about it!

    I'm not nearly experienced enough to do anything too tricky with them so will keep them tight, maybe a bit of stealing on the button but I'll try not to get too attached :)


  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited April 2012
    In opening hand, A5o, the effective stack is 23bbs, in this spot you should pretty much NEVER be flat calling OOP with ANY hand (maybe AA/KK if oppo is super aggro but even then I prefer a 3bet).

    Your only options are to 3bet-shove or fold, I personally don't love 3bet as any call means you're dead but if he's been very loose you could consider it as a value play. With calling though you're pretty much always check folding and even when you hit top pair Aces you might still not be good so overall it's just gonna leak you lots and lots of chips. 
  • V6CoopV6Coop Member Posts: 12
    edited April 2012
    Thanks for the reply dudeskin, that's good advice I'll try to do more often :)

    It was a terrbible call, especially since i knew the CO was a pretty tight player, so I don't know what I was thinking there. It's like i said, I really struggle to play rag aces and do tend to stupidly bleed chips...
  • V6CoopV6Coop Member Posts: 12
    edited May 2012
    So continuing my problems with aces... Should i have folded this after the check raise? 

    (copy/paste failing again!)

    Open AhJs on the button to my std 3x raise - 400
    Villain in SB 3bets to 800
    I call
    JcAc5s on the flop
    Villain checks
    I raise the pot - 1800
    He reraises pot - 3600
    I shove for 7200 & he calls
    Villian shows AdAs
    Turn hits Kh then river Qh so he wins with 3xA


  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2012
    what are the stacks pre in last hand?

    not sure of the figures, ie does villain raise to 3600 or make it 3600 more
  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited May 2012
    The AJ hand I doubt I'd fold it preflop, but rather than flat I may make a small 4bet and really see where I am with it. His min raise preflop could be wanting a call with a monster, or putting you to the test to see if you just blind stealing. Rather find out before the flop if my AJ is in trouble. As played once you hit the flop its really a cooler and it would be difficult to lay down top two pair with only a set beating you at that point. Course others may suggest other ways, as tournaments not my main game of choice.And if he flats a 4bet same thing happens on flop with it all going in.

    One of those very difficult to get away from in a tournament i think though unless you can see a flush or straight etc.
  • V6CoopV6Coop Member Posts: 12
    edited May 2012
    The stacks were about 12k at the start which was average stacks for the tournament. I think once i'd gone about 1/3 in on the flop it was all or nothing.

    A good idea to do the 4bet i think but i would have gona all in anyway lol!
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