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Folding AK

ClintonH83ClintonH83 Member Posts: 431
edited May 2012 in The Poker Clinic
Just been playing in my Nuts Poker League, finished seconds, all in with 10 5 on a flop or 10 5 6, he had pocket Aces! turn 7, river a 6!!! :(  Anyway won £100 so happy days :)

Anyway wanna talk about a hand.....

6 players left, blinds 5/10 thousand, guy goes all in 40 thousand, guy next to him re raises all in 97 thousand, ive got AK off in the bb, im chip leader with 230 thousand chips......i fold? JQ clubs vs AQ off :(  they both dont hit and a King come on the river......cue the abuse of the worst fold ever!

My reason on folding 1. thought maybe AA or KK? 2. do i really wanna risk half my stack on AK off 3 ways? If id of been short stacked id of called all day but being in a healthy lead i thought i'll pass this time and wait for a better situation. Does anyone see my point or is it a call all day? Nobody could see my point on folding and i got pretty ripped

Thoughts please.....
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Comments

  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited May 2012
    I'd be folding too, an open shove for 40BB is pretty massive and I don't really get why you'd do it, then to reshove for 97BB when you have nothing invested...  In this case you were against 2 maniacs, but normally you're gonna be flipping at best when you don't need to.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited May 2012
    Forget what I just said, was thinking it was 500/100

    Ok so a 4BB shove, and then a 9BB re-shove, yeah I think you should probably call. With the stacks that shallow, it massively widens their range and as DONK said, you got 2 pots up for grabs.

    How can you possibly be considering AA/KK, I mean yeah it's possible but when both people have less than 10BB, they could equally have 22+, AT+ KQ, QJ, or worse depending on how good/bad the players are.
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  • ClintonH83ClintonH83 Member Posts: 431
    edited May 2012
    Yeah i can see both your points, maybe it was a bad fold then? But can you see where im coming from on why i did fold? People there couldnt see my point, think they just wanted me to take 2 people out to up there money haha
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  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,462
    edited May 2012
    I have to agree with the people abusing you here :o

    1) You "thought maybe AA or KK" - The fact we have AK means we have blockers to both AA and KK, which makes them both much less likely. Equally, it makes underpairs more likely.

    The chances of someone being dealt AA is 4/52 x 3/51 = 220:1
    If we have AK, the chances of a specific opponent being dealt AA is now 3/50 x 2/49 = 408:1.

    The chances of someone being dealt QQ is also 220:1
    If we have AK, the chances of a specific opponent being dealt QQ is now 4/50 x 3/49 = 204:1

    So yeah, don't worry about AA and KK. You're more likely to be against an underpair or dominating a worse Ax hand.

    2) If you're not risking half of your stack with AK, what are you risking half of your stack with? 

    If you're folding AK to a 3bet and waiting for better spots, then let me know if you're playing cash, I'll sit on your left and 3bet you all day for fun.
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  • ClintonH83ClintonH83 Member Posts: 431
    edited May 2012
    Yeah i get what your saying but do you not see that it being a tournament, top 5 get paid, im Chip leader i dont need to bother risking nearly half my stack on AK? I see and get all the point being made and yeah id of won with the King on the river but i might of lost! Im getting it was probably a bad fold i was just hoping someone might of seen my point on why i did?
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  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,462
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: Folding AK:
    Yeah i get what your saying but do you not see that it being a tournament, top 5 get paid, im Chip leader i dont need to bother risking nearly half my stack on AK? I see and get all the point being made and yeah id of won with the King on the river but i might of lost! Im getting it was probably a bad fold i was just hoping someone might of seen my point on why i did?
    Posted by ClintonH83
    I can see your point, I just don't agree with it.

    Firstly, we play tournaments to win, not to min cash or w/e. The big money is for winning. If we shove, we most likely knock 2 players out and have a mountain of chips.

    Because you have both players covered, the only way for the bubble to not burst would be for the shortstack to treble up and you lose the side pot, which is very unlikely. Even that would simply level the chipstacks out a bit, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Therefore, even if not bubbling means the world to you, it's still an easy shove.


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  • ClintonH83ClintonH83 Member Posts: 431
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: Folding AK:
    In Response to Re: Folding AK : I can see your point, I just don't agree with it. Posted by EvilPingu
    Thats fair enough! I understand it was a bad fold and i can take the ribbing for it but it didnt fold AA! There was a reason, a thought process, a method to the madness as they say to why i folded
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  • ClintonH83ClintonH83 Member Posts: 431
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: Folding AK:
    like i already said theres 2 pots up for grabs so got to call if they both had 97k all in then i could find a fold but as theres 2 pots up for grabs im calling 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    Fair point
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  • ACEGOONERACEGOONER Member Posts: 1,432
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: Folding AK:
    I have to agree with the people abusing you here :o 1) You "thought maybe AA or KK" - The fact we have AK means we have blockers to both AA and KK, which makes them both much less likely. Equally, it makes underpairs more likely. The chances of someone being dealt AA is 4/52 x 3/51 = 220:1 If we have AK, the chances of a specific opponent being dealt AA is now 3/50 x 2/49 = 408:1. The chances of someone being dealt QQ is also 220:1 If we have AK, the chances of a specific opponent being dealt QQ is now 4/50 x 3/49 = 204:1 So yeah, don't worry about AA and KK. You're more likely to be against an underpair or dominating a worse Ax hand. 2) If you're not risking half of your stack with AK, what are you risking half of your stack with?  If you're folding AK to a 3bet and waiting for better spots, then let me know if you're playing cash, I'll sit on your left and 3bet you all day for fun.
    Posted by EvilPingu
    Then ill be 4 betting you pingu! Seriously though well explained, a lot of poker players dont get the maths im shoving ak all day long.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited May 2012
    Even if you lose vs big stack you still have 133k left which, if 230 made you chip leader, should keep your head well above water.

    Snap call for me. 
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  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited May 2012
    I can see why you folded as its on the bubble, but can't ever see me folding this even on the bubble against a 5bb and 10bb shove, as not like 20bb is winning me the tournament and will I get a better spot, as only got to beat one of them to make this a profitable call. 5bb guy is going to be shoving any old junk, and the 10bb guy could have anything from Ax to Kx or a PP. Has to be a call really with AK at this stage.

    Still grats on second place :)
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited May 2012
    4bb open shove?  10bb reshove.

    23bb stack ourselves

    Only need to beat the 10bb stack to come out a winner.  Opportunity to knock out 2 players and increase our chip lead....

    I'd need a very strong reason not to call.

    Real point for me is this:  We are likely playing a shove fest now (reshoving) with 23 bbs any way.  If we call and lose, we still have a 13bb bullet.  Our PF options remain pretty much the same, reshove or shove.  So losing doesnt hugely impact our ability to play.  In this kind of format their are actually a few benefits to being shorter (i.e.  decisions are easier etc)

    I dont like calling it off in these spots either tbh, but think the pro's outweigh the cons far too heavily not to.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: Folding AK:
    I have to agree with the people abusing you here :o 1) You "thought maybe AA or KK" - The fact we have AK means we have blockers to both AA and KK, which makes them both much less likely. Equally, it makes underpairs more likely. The chances of someone being dealt AA is 4/52 x 3/51 = 220:1 If we have AK, the chances of a specific opponent being dealt AA is now 3/50 x 2/49 = 408:1. The chances of someone being dealt QQ is also 220:1 If we have AK, the chances of a specific opponent being dealt QQ is now 4/50 x 3/49 = 204:1 So yeah, don't worry about AA and KK. You're more likely to be against an underpair or dominating a worse Ax hand. 2) If you're not risking half of your stack with AK, what are you risking half of your stack with?  If you're folding AK to a 3bet and waiting for better spots, then let me know if you're playing cash, I'll sit on your left and 3bet you all day for fun.
    Posted by EvilPingu
    Lol. :)
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2012
    Bet the guy w/AQ was loving you )

    The fold is not that bad, not great either.....6 players left you have AK with that action you should be happy to flip for half your stack - u lose u still have 13bb - win = yipeeeeeeeeeeeee TID

    I find the fold to be a very passive play )
    Just grab your balls and stick em in

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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2012
    don't fold ak pre 10bb deep
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  • ClintonH83ClintonH83 Member Posts: 431
    edited May 2012
    In Response to Re: Folding AK:
    tbh its 1 of the worst folds ever Posted by IDONKCALLU
    haha thanks mate! Yeah today its sunk in a bit more that it was a BAD fold! Oh well we live & learn, at the time i went with what i felt! i'll learn from this
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  • ClintonH83ClintonH83 Member Posts: 431
    edited May 2012
    Thanks for the feedback everyone
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