some feedback on all streets, please.

Swog

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
nosdivad	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£2.41
Deczzo	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.15
	Your hole cards	J A
ClintonH83	Fold
Swog	Raise		£0.16	£0.22	£6.65
cintezaur	Fold
Pipunch	Call		£0.16	£0.38	£14.64
nosdivad	Fold
Deczzo	Fold
Flop
		K 2 3
Swog	Bet		£0.20	£0.58	£6.45
Pipunch	Raise		£0.59	£1.17	£14.05
Swog	Call		£0.39	£1.56	£6.06
Turn
		10
Swog	Check
Pipunch	Bet		£0.78	£2.34	£13.27
Swog	Call		£0.78	£3.12	£5.28
River
		10
Swog	Check
Pipunch	Bet		£2.34	£5.46	£10.93
Swog	Call		£2.34	£7.80	£2.94
Pipunch	Show	10 K
Swog	Muck	J A
Pipunch	Win	Full House, 10s and Kings	£7.21		£18.14

I don't think my opponent here will mind me creating this thread, so here goes:

On the flop maybe my sizing could be a little bigger. Given the odds of a call from the 3bet and the implied odds i call.

On the turn i was given 2-1 on my money (i.e. 33% chance) i also have 3 non club queens and 9 clubs to hit (i.e. a 26% chance of hitting on the river) i appreciate a K or 10 of clubs could be a disaster card, but the huge implied odds of a non club queen hitting must outweigh this (given i would have gone for the check raise and probably got full stack). So, say in this example i have 20% equity on the turn, i would need the pot to be in excess of £4.68 which is easily plausible and more given the stacks behind (but in reality my equity is much higher, so would bring this down)

enough of the maths and onto the river, bingo! i hit a club, but realise its one of those dangerous board pairing clubs. Is this a crying call? it looks very much like a value town type bet with the boat to me, but surely i can't lay down the nut flush here? or are there just so little hands that do this that i beat?

ClintonH83

Im was on the table and it was just one of them hands! Only way i think you win is if you shove all in when he re raises you on the flop to make him fold and then he might not of? Oh and if any other club comes on the river

Id put him on 2 pair K & 10's so now way am i folding Nut flush here

Pipunch

I don't mind at all.

I had K10s and the only reason i even played the hand was because of my position.

My reraise on the flop was to enable me to protect against flush draws and to try and get a check from you on the turn, which you did (just incase it was a brick for me, i'd then get to see the river for free).

To be honest i would have played this a lot tighter against a bad opponent but because i know that you try to think about the game i knew that i had room for some moves and to be honest was just luck to hit the third 10.

Also i can't say about the maths because i'm a bit maths-dyslexic (that it definitely not a real term) and tend to think about poker in a different way where i just try to sense out the information rather than thinking in odds and things.

Dudeskin8

Firstly try and get stack sizes included, I can see you start with around £6 but would be nice for it to be more clearer.

Yeah a bit more on flop to give yourself extra FE, call fine with NFD plus possible Ace out.

Turn again odds laid give you price.

River is tricky because most hands he raises flop with will be sets IMO so 22/33 which are then obviously houses on the river, I presume he can also raise flop with a draw especially against you, then there are the Kx hands (ruling out AK which would most likely 3bet pre) which would flat the flop most times IP to get value from any bluffs you have plus then value bet if you check to them.

He's river bet 75% of pot is defo value IMO (unless you know he can rep a flush) and you have to think what he bets with that you beat, could be worse flushs but as you have Flush yourself I'd lean more towards houses, also if he has a KQ/KJ type hand even AK I reckon he'd check behind on that river.

Call is certainly not awful but fold is an option against another REG, also on that you should probz table select better to avoid these spots lol

rancid

looks fine


fold on river, doubt oppo is betting one pr hands- oppo shouldn't but doesn't mean oppo won't :S
bets half your stack so lol he wants anything he can get

call or fold


foldage 4 da win

edit: lol just seen the spoiler above - thanks pip )

Swog

Thanks for the advice so far:
On table selecting it was late at night so there was only 5-6 tables at NL4, otherwise i'd be staying well clear. I didn't ever put him on 22/33 because of his raise sizing on the flop and turn bet sizing, surely pip would bet much more on the turn with a set. Looking back K10 looks like the only likely hand here (which is what he had), surely i can't be scared of one hand expecially when he could be trying to take me of the pot, and i wasn't convinced he would raise flop with K10.
TBH i expected him to be turning up with a few bluffs in this spot, maybe i was overthinking it! 
Maybe, at a push he could have had KQs and was firing with TP and flush draw?

Swog

edited OP with stack sizes and opponents hand! btw nice hand Pipunch!

Pipunch

Cheers mate. Btw i'm never too happy to see you multi tabling either cause i try to avoid you hahah.

Swog

just out of interest if the river had come a non-board pairing club or in paticular a non club Q and i check it over to you, what would your next move be?
Surely, you can't check behind?

Pipunch

I think i would have to as all the draws got there and two pair would look weak so i would only be called with anything that had me beat. This might be a mistake but it's just my logic - it doesn't make sense to me to burn more of the stack when the draws come in, when i would have spent the entire hand essentially trying to get you off the draw. Okay it's continuing a story but i would just see it as needless if i have the opportunity to showdown.

rancid

In Response to Re: some feedback on all streets, please.:

just out of interest if the river had come a non-board pairing club or in paticular a non club Q and i check it over to you, what would your next move be? Surely, you can't check behind?
Posted by Swog

I am sure you would bet Swog if it came a non club Q - and pip would have a tank )
No way on earth should you check it over, losing value

Swog

i'm definitley sure i wouldnt. And i completley disagree Rancid. Okay lets say that the board came the non club queen. so there is £3.12 in the pot, with effective stacks £5.28 back. so you suggest donk leading for value say £2ish, what kinds of hands am i going to get called by here: 22, 33, K10 (even K10 might fold), basically i'm only getting called by sets i believe. Let me stress i'm never going to get raised, hence not getting my full stack in.
Conversely, imagine the same situation but i check to Pip on the river. Think of the range of cards i get a bet on the end from and possibly even full stacks (i.e. 2 pair hands, sets, bluffs) So the same hands plus many more pay me of the £2, not to mention the possibility of the full fiver.
Lets be honest, the hands that flat a donk lead are probably most the time paying of a check raise too. Increasing my value!

Surely my thinking here is correct Rancid.

rancid

By checking nut straight on river, oppo is more likely to check behind than value bet 2 pr/sets
Unless oppo b/f £1, oppo is not b/f £2.50 against your stack

versus oppo range your losing value by not beting, by  checking you have to put bluffs in oppo's range a high percentage of the time

oppo will more likely call £2, or may even call a shove looking like a missed FD repping SD

bet your hands dude, don't hope someone does it for you
in this situation it's clear oppo has some kind of hand that you can v/b against IF you hit the nut straight

Obviously there are certain situations where you can check it over expecting a bet and value raise or just call but this isn't one of them - your hand is too big to check over - UNLESS you know oppo will put in such a thin v/b and wil call a raise :S

simonnatur

Swog, 

let's think this through...

You say Pip is a player you would avoid where possible. From his replies above you would have to assume this is because he is a competent, thinking player.

He has seen no aggression from you since your standard continuation bet on the flop. Given the texture of the flop a flush draw must be high up the list in the range of hands he is putting you on.

His hand on the river ( if a club comes that doesnt make him a full house ) is now reduced to a bluff catcher and should be happy to check behind.

IMO your best play would be to bet half to two thirds of the pot on the river and hope for a crying call. Checking would be terrible because of the risk that he checks behind. If he did bet, your checkraise should cause any competent player to fold anything except perhaps a worse flush. 

rancid

In Response to Re: some feedback on all streets, please.:

Swog,  let's think this through... You say Pip is a player you would avoid where possible. From his replies above you would have to assume this is because he is a competent, thinking player. He has seen no aggression from you since your standard continuation bet on the flop. Given the texture of the flop a flush draw must be high up the list in the range of hands he is putting you on. His hand on the river ( if a club comes that doesnt make him a full house ) is now reduced to a bluff catcher and should be happy to check behind. IMO your best play would be to bet half to two thirds of the pot on the river and hope for a crying call. Checking would be terrible because of the risk that he checks behind. If he did bet, your check raise should cause any competent player to fold anything except perhaps a worse flush. 
Posted by simonnatur

yeah Sim, but with effective stack of £5ish and pot of £3, if swog checks it over to thinking player, then pip would not bet as pip canny b/f because that would be a bit bad :S So oppo probably checks behind all value hands including top end of range being SETS!
Given that pip is a thinking player then what does pip put swog on to then think the bet would get called
we are only talking about a set over set thin v/b here surely, swog would fold all one pair hands
So what would pip get value out of - mmmm nothing :S

ok it's turning into a bit of a ramble ..........

Pipunch

I put him on either a better king than me or straight/flush draw, so i knew once the river gave me the boat that i was good to put a value bet in. Everything before that from my end was to make him pay to draw knowing i had 2 pair whilst also potentially repping the draw myself.

I was sure of this because i raised him on the flop knowing that if he missed on the turn he would attempt to check it to see the river for free, which in turn also gave me a chance to see the river free if i needed to. Once my 2 pair came though i was only ever going to value bet the river if it paired or check behind (if allowed) if it didn't improve me.

I think it boils down to position ultimately because i wouldn't have even played the hand out of position if facing a pre flop raise.

EvilPingu

Against a reg, I might 3bet the flop to £1.50ish and look to get it in, I probably have 12 outs (basically flipping) and fold equity.

Swog

to be fair pip, if you was looking to make me 'pay to draw', why are you giving me the odds to catch my flush on the flop and on the turn? Your flop raise isn't actually achieving anything, if your ahead your giving me decent odds to catch you up and your just turning your hand into a bluff.
Anyway luckily for you it came runner runner 10s for you. I was really expecting you to show a bluff, you rather had K10 or nothing (doubt you would flat 33/22 pre) and how could i put you on that very hand, given your line.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: some feedback on all streets, please.:

to be fair pip, if you was looking to make me 'pay to draw', why are you giving me the odds to catch my flush on the flop and on the turn? Your flop raise isn't actually achieving anything, if your ahead your giving me decent odds to catch you up and your just turning your hand into a bluff. Anyway luckily for you it came runner runner 10s for you. I was really expecting you to show a bluff, you rather had K10 or nothing (doubt you would flat 33/22 pre) and how could i put you on that very hand, given your line.
Posted by Swog

Why wouldn't he?

donkeyplop

Not sure I would have liked you calling to hit a nut flush then folding river though. Just call as you did unlucky. 

Pipunch

In Response to Re: some feedback on all streets, please.:

to be fair pip, if you was looking to make me 'pay to draw', why are you giving me the odds to catch my flush on the flop and on the turn?

I'm not the best poker player (or even a good poker player) and my knowledge is extremely slim. But what i deduce from the hand is this:

If i'm making you pay, i want you to give me your money. Knowing you're decent why would i give you extremely poor odds to call with massive overbets? A fish would pay these prices but i didn't think you would so i raised what i thought i could get out of you. This and the fact that i wasn't actually sure my hand was even good until the turn (at which point i knew i was winning) means i was protecting my own hand with my flop play as explained above. At this level i don't think about my 'line' too much because 99% of people don't know anything about anything. (as Dudeskin once put it 'the people at NL4 know less than nothing') So in this instance, i tried to protect my hand by reraising you on the turn, which i succeeded in doing because i could have seen the river for free by using my position, and after that i value bet (to me 'value bet' means i raised what i thought you'd pay). I'm really not qualified or experienced enough to take a preemptive 'line' so i'm just explaining what my thought process was.

Your flop raise isn't actually achieving anything, if your ahead your giving me decent odds to catch you up and your just turning your hand into a bluff.

My flop raise caused you to go from leading out on the flop to checking on the turn, whilst also building a pot in which i was fairly certain i was ahead, and allowing me to see the river for free if i felt i needed it.

I think i used my position really well here. Whether it's 'right' long term or whatever i can't say because i'm a newcomer to the game and am still learning all the ropes.

Anyway luckily for you it came runner runner 10s for you. I was really expecting you to show a bluff, you rather had K10 or nothing (doubt you would flat 33/22 pre) and how could i put you on that very hand, given your line.

Not really lucky for me, more like unlucky for you that you didn't make a hand. I had the best hand on the flop and the best hand on the turn and river.

I also think flatting with a pocket pair is a completely standard play at these levels.

I would say my mistake in the hand was the river bet. I put you on a straight or flush and when one or the other came in i should have gone for full stack, but it was late and i was sleepy so i'm sticking to that excuse!