just get it in?

Swog

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceSwog Small blind  £0.05 £0.05 £9.95 ozriktenal Big blind  £0.10 £0.15 £5.25  Your hole cards A Q    xxCall  £0.10 £0.25 £6.82 JMC23 Fold     FAS Call  £0.10 £0.35 £7.13 drrdre1 Fold     Swog Raise  £0.60 £0.95 £9.35 ozriktenal Fold     xxCall  £0.55 £1.50 £6.27 FAS Fold     Flop  J J 2    Swog Check     xxCheck     Turn  Q    Swog Bet  £0.80 £2.30 £8.55 xxRaise  £3.90 £6.20 £2.37

Reads on villian:
seen him limp into alot of pots.

i know he goes pot size on the turn, should i give him credit for a Jack, or just shove knowing he's pot commited and can turn up here with Qx?

DrRunGood

depends on the player but readless i would just put him allin if he has j good luck to him but chances is you will find hes got diamond draw or str8 draw or he thinks your at it cause you check the raised

EvilPingu

C-bet the flop. Having checked the flop, I think we should probably check the turn as well, and just check/call him down.

Villain has taken a really passive line preflop by just limp/calling - If he's normally that passive then I'm folding this, as I don't think he's going to have worse when he suddenly check/raises us very often.

Opponent dependant, so need more info on the villain, really.

Swog

maybe i should have cbet the flop, but i think there is arguments against cbetting too:
(i) im oop
(ii) There is the possibility that no turn cards can improve my hand, no back door flushes etc.
(iii) i have showdown value, so could get took of a winning hand to a shove.

Swog

updated OP with read(s)

Fabraclass

In Response to just get it in?:

Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Swog Small blind   £0.05 £0.05 £9.95 ozriktenal Big blind   £0.10 £0.15 £5.25   Your hole cards A Q       xx Call   £0.10 £0.25 £6.82 JMC23 Fold         FAS Call   £0.10 £0.35 £7.13 drrdre1 Fold         Swog Raise   £0.60 £0.95 £9.35 ozriktenal Fold         xx Call   £0.55 £1.50 £6.27 FAS Fold         Flop     J J 2       Swog Check         xx Check         Turn     Q       Swog Bet   £0.80 £2.30 £8.55 xx Raise   £3.90 £6.20 £2.37 Reads on villian: seen him limp into alot of pots. i know he goes pot size on the turn, should i give him credit for a Jack, or just shove knowing he's pot commited and can turn up here with Qx?
Posted by Swog

I dnn't think I'm beating much against a passive player who suddenly raise's massive. I don't think he would raise a weak queen like that and maybe not a strong queen either. Being a passive player aswell their is a good chance he may just call with a flush draw.

As a general rule I would flat a small or average size raise here, and depending on by read and the board, decide on the river. In this situation I 'd prob just fold turn.

KAM99

What info on villian if any? Does he limp all alot or is not so common? Often those that don't limp call so much do tend to limp call with PP's because they don't like raising baby pairs. So 22 would be my guess if this is the style he plays. Even if he does limp a lot this is normally a sign of a poor and passive player so a reraie at the turn is never a good sign, and normally one pair isn't going to be enough (yes know you have two pair, but you get my point).

I do agree with Pingu though that you should hae cbet that flop, as you aren't really bluffing as A high quite likely good a lot of the time there, and you can reevaluate if called or raised. Think most times you are beat here, but would like more info on villian to be really happy about that.. if normallypassive i'm done with the hand here.

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: just get it in?:

maybe i should have cbet the flop, but i think there is arguments against cbetting too: (i) im oop (ii) There is the possibility that no turn cards can improve my hand, no back door flushes etc. (iii) i have showdown value, so could get took of a winning hand to a shove.
Posted by Swog

With regards to (i) and (iii) - Being OOP is actually a reason to c-bet, otherwise the player in position is likely to use position and aggression to take us off what is likely to be the hand. 

I agree that AQ high is going to be the best hand a lot of the time here, but if you're checking because you think AQ high is good and you want to extract value by letting the opponent bluff, then this is the wrong spot to do it IMO. It'd be better to take that line when:

1) We have position

2) We have an aggressive player who is likely to have a stab at the pot if we show weakness by not c-betting, and is capable of bluffing.

3) It's a wet board, so our opponent can fire several barrel with a draw, and will often have a missed straight or flush draw on the river, and our AQ high beats his missed draw.

The fact he's a passive player means he's not going to bet unless he hits, so by checking, we're basically giving him free cards to outdraw us if we're ahead.

BorinLoner

If you're not going to c-bet a dry flop like this because you're out of position, then you shouldn't raise it pre-flop. Think of the two as a single entity - a c-bet automatically follows a pre-flop raise. That should be your default play and it should take something unusual to happen for you to diverge from that. This flop gives you no reason to diverge from your standard play.

I have to disagree with some of what is being said about passive players. I think the raise here almost certainly indicates some sort of hand but we shouldn't make the mistake of believing that all players who play passively pre-flop also necessarily play passively after the flop. Generally speaking passivity is an indicator of a weak or inexperienced player. In this situation I see alot of inexperienced players making this raise with KQ, QJ or Qx, perhaps even a lower pair like 99, 88, etc. It's not impossible for this to be a bluff either, since inexperienced players generally like to do things a little bit flairy and wild.

I'd be getting it in on the turn. I think there are enough weaker Queens, underpairs or weird bluffs to make it profitable. If you're not willing to get it in on the turn then I don't think you should lead out. Check/call and if he doesn't bet then you can value bet the river.

rancid

oppo is excited about something, don't mind the delayed c bet -
don't think paired flops are great to c bet - only really repping a pair and still getting called by a pair - things can still be good if your checking here with a lot of your range


oppo probably got 22 or Jx, fold - I would probbaly want to see it though for what oppo has got behind so shove )
Sometimes it's Qx

o and oppo is never bluffing

The_Don90

I cbet the flop c/c down from turn onwards.

percival09

I get iti n

Swog

Thanks Rancid, at least someone agrees with me on this one. i don't like cbetting as alot of hands he calls preflop probably still peels on the flop.

Pingu, id much rather cbet in position than out of position. Your point that: he can use position and aggression against us, whats stopping him using position and aggression against us even if we cbet?

Fabraclass

In Response to just get it in?:

Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Swog Small blind   £0.05 £0.05 £9.95 ozriktenal Big blind   £0.10 £0.15 £5.25   Your hole cards A Q       xx Call   £0.10 £0.25 £6.82 JMC23 Fold         FAS Call   £0.10 £0.35 £7.13 drrdre1 Fold         Swog Raise   £0.60 £0.95 £9.35 ozriktenal Fold         xx Call   £0.55 £1.50 £6.27 FAS Fold         Flop     J J 2       Swog Check         xx Check         Turn     Q       Swog Bet   £0.80 £2.30 £8.55 xx Raise   £3.90 £6.20 £2.37 Reads on villian: seen him limp into alot of pots. i know he goes pot size on the turn, should i give him credit for a Jack, or just shove knowing he's pot commited and can turn up here with Qx?
Posted by Swog

The £3.90 bet sizing could also be a clue.This old marketing ploy. The way the player is playing, would indicate they weren't a great player. Therefore using the 90p rather then round £4 would in my opinion,be another indication that they more then likely have a strong hand. I reckon a weaker player would be less likely to bet £3.90 as a bluff trying to make it look like he trying to entice you to call.