Overshove on turn with top two pair....Can i fold?

BigHawk89

Hand History #524986212 (18:12 29/05/2012)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancerab12Small blind £0.15£0.15£17.175starginalBig blind £0.30£0.45£31.50 Your hole cardsA8   codseyesFold    elbows7Fold    IMikeyBoyICall £0.30£0.75£34.33BigHawk89Raise £1.20£1.95£36.93xxCall £1.05£3.00£16.125starginalFold    IMikeyBoyICall £0.90£3.90£33.43Flop  8A7   xxCheck    IMikeyBoyICheck    BigHawk89Bet £2.70£6.60£34.23xxCall £2.70£9.30£13.42IMikeyBoyIFold    Turn  2   xxAll-in £13.42£22.72£0.00BigHawk89Call £13.42£36.14£20.81xxShow5J   BigHawk89ShowA8   River  J   xxWinFlush to the Ace£34.34 £34.34

BigHawk89

Reads on oppo are that he is a pretty bad player. Is he only shoving turn with a flush??

percival09

I'm never folding without specific reads here

he could be shoving worse 2 pairs + 1 pair with fd

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Overshove on turn with top two pair....Can i fold?:

Reads on oppo are that he is a pretty bad player. Is he only shoving turn with a flush??
Posted by BigHawk89

Is flatting 4x from SB with J5 & limper left to act bad?

Sigh..... just going to be dynamic dependant.  As hand plays is going to be flush more often than not I suspect though.

KAM99

I can't see the stack sizes at all on this post so hard to comment on it really. Though if stacks are quite big still on the flop I can't seethis often being less than a flush. Its sort of thing bad players do and hope they get a call, and based on the hand he shows up with clearly he is a bad player.

Fabraclass

In Response to Overshove on turn with top two pair....Can i fold?:

Hand History #524986212 (18:12 29/05/2012) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance rab12 Small blind   £0.15 £0.15 £17.17 5starginal Big blind   £0.30 £0.45 £31.50   Your hole cards A 8       codseyes Fold         elbows7 Fold         IMikeyBoyI Call   £0.30 £0.75 £34.33 BigHawk89 Raise   £1.20 £1.95 £36.93 xx Call   £1.05 £3.00 £16.12 5starginal Fold         IMikeyBoyI Call   £0.90 £3.90 £33.43 Flop     8 A 7       xx Check         IMikeyBoyI Check         BigHawk89 Bet   £2.70 £6.60 £34.23 xx Call   £2.70 £9.30 £13.42 IMikeyBoyI Fold         Turn     2       xx All-in   £13.42 £22.72 £0.00 BigHawk89 Call   £13.42 £36.14 £20.81 xx Show 5 J       BigHawk89 Show A 8       River     J       xx Win Flush to the Ace £34.34   £34.34
Posted by BigHawk89

I think this is a fold on the turn for the following reasons.

1 He check call s your bet on flop out of position 3 way. He almost always has something here. He is extremely unlikely to be floating you looking to make a move later, by repping a flush or whatever. Players generally don't do this play very often. And even more unlikely out of position in a 3 way pot.

2 He puts in a massive overbet. This generally represents value to me. As the risk reward for using this as a bluff or semi bluff doenn't is not great.

3 You have only committed a small amount to the pot.The odds you are being offered are not great.

4 When a player want to get their entire stack into the middle all of a sudden they usually have a big hand, or a hand they think is a big hand.

5 The way he played the hand signifies very strongly, that them having a flush is very likely. Two pair or a set is very likely to raise flop, and even more unlikely to shove their stack in on the turn when a flush comes.Their is no good reason for an ace plus a heart to just shove their entire stack into the middle, especially when their is hardly anything in the middle.

If the opponent was a wild weak player I think a call could be ok.

Curt360x27

CALL

rancid

fold without reads

grantorino

In Response to Re: Overshove on turn with top two pair....Can i fold?:

In Response to Overshove on turn with top two pair....Can i fold? : I think this is definitely a fold on the turn for the following reasons. 1 He check call s your bet on flop out of position 3 way. He almost always has something here. He is extremely unlikely to be floating you looking to make a move later, by repping a flush or whatever. Players generally don't do this play very often. And even more unlikely out of position in a 3 way pot. 2 He puts in a massive overbet. This generally represents value to me. As the risk reward for using this as a bluff or semi bluff doenn't make much sense. 3 You have only committed a small amount to the pot.The odds you are being offered are very poor. 4 When a player want to get their entire stack into the middle all of a sudden they usually have a big hand, or a hand they think is a big hand. 5 The way he played the hand signifies very strongly, that them having a flush is very likely. Two pair or a set is very likely to raise flop, and even more unlikely to shove their stack in on the turn when a flush comes.Their is no good reason for an ace plus a heart to just shove their entire stack into the middle, especially when their is hardly anything in the middle.
Posted by Fabraclass

Villain is a fish according to ops read, which negates a lot of your points above. He ain't thinking that way, if he is he's not open shoving turn

imo clear call, he will turn up with worse enough. 

Fabraclass

In Response to Re: Overshove on turn with top two pair....Can i fold?:

In Response to Re: Overshove on turn with top two pair....Can i fold? : Villain is a fish according to ops read, which negates a lot of your points above. He ain't thinking that way, if he is he's not open shoving turn imo clear call, he will turn up with worse enough. 
Posted by grantorino

He may be a weaker player. But weaker players are intelligent aswell. Surely he knows it pretty pointless to shove here with two pair or a semi bluff. From this hand he doesn't appear to be the kind of weak player, who is wildy and illogically aggressive. He flatted pre and on flop, and suddenly all his chips are in the middle when a flush comes.

Pretty much any hand he called the flop with has showdown value.Surely he knows he has showdown value with an ace plus a flush draw. That is common sense that, pretty much every human has.  By shoving he is,just about only getting called when he is crushed. Most weak players know this.

Granted showing with the flush is illogical. I have seen players limp shoving aces. I remember hearing about a poker author who wrote, that when a player sticks a massive bet in,and their is only a small amount in the middle they mostly have the goods. And this is compatible with my own experience

Wasn't actually as as much of an overbet as I tought at first.Tought he bet 13 into a pot of 2. Their is a chance he is semi bluffing, to force off better hands, and you won't lose a full buyin. Its marginal in my opinion, we could be crushed. Whether they are a passive weak player or a wild weak player, I think is an important factor to consider.

grantorino

People, especially weaker players, often bet hands with showdown value when they shouldn't. He can "value bet" worse two pair Ax here also sets which obv beat us along with pair +heart hands and the odd bluff

rancid

I think weaker bad players always do this with flushes here, because they call then hit & bet 100%

Don't think oppo is thinking at all

profman15

Stack sizes are important here but if you are calling be looking for the flush as you'll probably be behind,.....don't chase too much.