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Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game

jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
edited June 2012 in The Poker Clinic
Anything wrong with this hand? Was my 3rd or fourth hand at this table don't know this particular villian suffice to say i have alot of notes on him now after just a couple of hands lol
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Robbo67 Big blind   £0.10 £0.10 £13.26
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • Q
     
tariii12 Call   £0.10 £0.20 £21.34
darryl1976 Raise   £0.40 £0.60 £11.04
jams88 Raise   £1.20 £1.80 £9.03
Daniel150 Call   £1.20 £3.00 £9.67
Robbo67 Fold        
tariii12 Fold        
darryl1976 Call   £0.80 £3.80 £10.24
Flop
   
  • 2
  • 8
  • K
     
darryl1976 Check        
jams88 Bet   £2.50 £6.30 £6.53
Daniel150 Call   £2.50 £8.80 £7.17
darryl1976 Fold        
Turn
   
  • 9
     
jams88 All-in   £6.53 £15.33 £0.00
Daniel150 Call   £6.53 £21.86 £0.64
jams88 Show
  • A
  • Q
     
Daniel150 Show
  • K
  • 7
     
River
   
  • 6
     
Daniel150 Win Pair of Kings £20.46   £21.10
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Comments

  • BigHawk89BigHawk89 Member Posts: 627
    edited June 2012
    I wouldnt bet so much on flop, if the villian calls here hes more or less commited himself on turn with a 1/3 of his stack in the middle. The turn is a really tough spot because your out of poisition with just a flush draw and im presuming a call station behind who think top pair is the nuts, id probably do the same as you here out of frustration lol but sure the right play is too check and hope for a free river card.
  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited June 2012

    Hey Jams

    I get the inkling my PM to you brings this post about. :D

    As i said in that aggresive play in cash game is better as its harder to play against an aggresive person than a passive one. That said you do need to be aware of the table dynamics and the players on your table. If you have a calling station you can't bully them as they will call down even their whole stack light. So basically you do have to be careful who you go at with hard aggression or it will cause you more problems.

    So in this case with this hand clearly villian is a calling station to be prepared to stack off like this with TPWK, which is horrible play and something you should have picked up on before attempting this kind of play. Against a villian like this you should not have bet so big on the flop for definate, and really either c/c the turn or even c/f if the price sucks as for him to call on the flop it is quite likely he has paired the king and you are drawing to your flush or maybe the ace as well.

    The other thing you have to consider is the fact that you are NOT HU, and that matters. Yes its a good board for you to fire at because even though you haven't connected you do have a draw and if they don't have a king its hard to call. But again be careful how aggresive you get with more than one villian in the pot with you when you do miss a board more than this and its got cards that would fit their range for calling etc.

    Age old case with low limits its difficult to bluff at those stakes, even if its a semi bluff. If they have something they will call if they have something, even if they shouldn't.

  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    Hey Jams I get the inkling my PM to you brings this post about. :D As i said in that aggresive play in cash game is better as its harder to play against an aggresive person than a passive one. That said you do need to be aware of the table dynamics and the players on your table. If you have a calling station you can't bully them as they will call down even their whole stack light. So basically you do have to be careful who you go at with hard aggression or it will cause you more problems. So in this case with this hand clearly villian is a calling station to be prepared to stack off like this with TPWK, which is horrible play and something you should have picked up on before attempting this kind of play. Against a villian like this you should not have bet so big on the flop for definate, and really either c/c the turn or even c/f if the price sucks as for him to call on the flop it is quite likely he has paired the king and you are drawing to your flush or maybe the ace as well. The other thing you have to consider is the fact that you are NOT HU, and that matters. Yes its a good board for you to fire at because even though you haven't connected you do have a draw and if they don't have a king its hard to call. But again be careful how aggresive you get with more than one villian in the pot with you when you do miss a board more than this and its got cards that would fit their range for calling etc. Age old case with low limits its difficult to bluff at those stakes, even if its a semi bluff. If they have something they will call if they have something, even if they shouldn't.
    Posted by KAM99
    Havent received a pm :s

    Thanks for your input much appriciated. At the time i didnt know that this player would stack of this light as had just joined the table but will definatly be looking for him again on th tables. By the turn i thought my ace was still live + flush draw so have about 1/4 of hitting the winner on the river but thought if i check it has to be to check fold so thought this bet would make most players fold a single pair oh well its been a decent days work overall so can't complain too much
  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    I wouldnt bet so much on flop, if the villian calls here hes more or less commited himself on turn with a 1/3 of his stack in the middle. The turn is a really tough spot because your out of poisition with just a flush draw and im presuming a call station behind who think top pair is the nuts, id probably do the same as you here out of frustration lol but sure the right play is too check and hope for a free river card.
    Posted by BigHawk89
    How much do we bet on the flop to not look like we are cebetting for the sake of it? with the pot already so big are you thinking 1.50ish hoping that i get to see the next card for that price?
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited June 2012
    I prob flat pre readless, 3bet fine though

    Post flop fine hu, but 3way I'm nos so sure. Prob ok though 

    trying to be more aggressive for the sake of it mightn't be great.. Think about why you want to play certain situations aggressively
  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    I prob flat pre readless, 3bet fine though Post flop fine hu, but 3way I'm nos so sure. Prob ok though  trying to be more aggressive for the sake of it mightn't be great.. Think about why you want to play certain situations aggressively
    Posted by grantorino
    Not really for the sake of it this was one of the situations where back at nl4 its c/c flop thinking at nl10 should be betting nutflush draw on the flop and tyring to take the pot down rather than just giveing up when the aq misses.
    3bet to isolate intial raiser didnt really work so well though...
  • BigHawk89BigHawk89 Member Posts: 627
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : How much do we bet on the flop to not look like we are cebetting for the sake of it? with the pot already so big are you thinking 1.50ish hoping that i get to see the next card for that price?
    Posted by jams88
    Yeah more like 1.40ish.
  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : Havent received a pm :s Thanks for your input much appriciated. At the time i didnt know that this player would stack of this light as had just joined the table but will definatly be looking for him again on th tables. By the turn i thought my ace was still live + flush draw so have about 1/4 of hitting the winner on the river but thought if i check it has to be to check fold so thought this bet would make most players fold a single pair oh well its been a decent days work overall so can't complain too much
    Posted by jams88
    Highlighted above the most vital part. Till you got some idea of a player its dangerous to play draws as you did, because you have no idea what they will do.

    As for it being a C/F, well thats possible, but not certain. You don't know exactly what he is holding, and as it happens there is a good chance he checks it back if you check because of his kicker. Not certain as he may well bet it, but even if he does he may give you the odds to call with your draw still. Certainly I don't like stacking off on a draw with one card to come with an unknown villian.
  • mattlessmattless Member Posts: 194
    edited June 2012
    I do think playing draws agressively is fine hu, multiway though might need to proceed with a bit more caution. when 3 betting pre I think you should almost always be c betting. In this hand can be smaller £1.90ish.

    Maybe c/c smallish turn bet, might have to fold to jam, but up to turn seems fine to me.
  • weedgiweedgi Member Posts: 103
    edited June 2012

    i play it  exactly same way as u did jams ,think its fine

  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited June 2012
    u want folds on turn, oppo is never folding

    £1.70 on flop

    check turn
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    u want folds on turn, oppo is never folding £1.70 on flop check turn
    Posted by rancid
    How have u decided oppo never folds?
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : How have u decided oppo never folds?
    Posted by grantorino
    if oppo calls flop, then oppo ain't folding to a turn bet

    if oppo calls flop and your ahead because oppo calls with a draw, then no need to bluff turn

    shove on turn only folds out 8x or underpairs to the board

    don't think oppo's at this level fold enough to make these moves on the turn worthwhile
    don't think semi bluffs on the turn with less equity are great plays tbh







  • liamboi11liamboi11 Member Posts: 2,141
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    i play it  exactly same way as u did jams ,think its fine
    Posted by weedgi
    I`m the same as weedgi dont know if its right or wrong tho lol
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : if oppo calls flop, then oppo ain't folding to a turn bet if oppo calls flop and your ahead because oppo calls with a draw, then no need to bluff turn shove on turn only folds out 8x or underpairs to the board don't think oppo's at this level fold enough to make these moves on the turn worthwhile don't think semi bluffs on the turn with less equity are great plays tbh
    Posted by rancid
    Oppo can fold turn if he calls flop. It's tough call without Kx or better, and he should have some other hands esp under pairs in his range. We also have 9-15 outs if called and it helps balance our range for when we have hands we want to get in

    Checking may be better here but most players have a range that calls one bet and folds to a double barrell
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game:
    In Response to Re: Trying to be more aggresive in my cash game : Oppo can fold turn if he calls flop. It's tough call without Kx or better, and he should have some other hands esp under pairs in his range. We also have 9-15 outs if called and it helps balance our range for when we have hands we want to get in Checking may be better here but most players have a range that calls one bet and folds to a double barrell
    Posted by grantorino
    Not so sure this is so for a 3 bet pot, if it was a std open and a call then I would expect our c bet to be called by a wide range and we have to double barrel our semi bluffs/bluffs

    in effect I see a 3 bet then c bet as a double barrel, but that's just me :s

    obviously once we 3 bet pre and we are oop we compound our spot by having to c bet flop and lead turn a lot

    versus the majority at NL10 you won't go far wrong by playing your draws the same as NL4
    We only need balance versus REGS

    if we do 3 bet pre then I prefer a smaller c bet, but if called it still puts us in a stick spot when called - so much prefer this IP - oop just sucks playing draws aggro



  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited June 2012
    +1 to what gt said

    so many times players float the flop in a 3b pot to see if hero can double barrel (and by double barrel I do mean bet flop and turn)

    In op, I'd understand shutting down on the turn if hero didn't have a fd because villain cold called, which is often dangerous readless. But with fd I'm usually always betting the turn because I think villain definitely folds all underpairs and sometimes a K

    I wouldn't look too much into balancing your range at nl10, at all. I may be wrong but I think you're looking to much into it. More times than not, unless presented with a good enough reason not to do so, it is a bet on the turn
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited June 2012
    Balancing range is prob more advanced a wording than I meant, but people at 10nl will remember a hand like that when you get a stack in with A hi, which should help you when you will be mostly value betting.  Certainly wouldn't worry much about balance at 10nl, but showing down this hand will affect your image
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited June 2012
    Think we agree to disagree, I just don't think you need to take the aggro line oop versus randoms at nl10

    think we get stationed more than we get floated
  • weedgiweedgi Member Posts: 103
    edited June 2012
     : if oppo calls flop, then oppo ain't folding to a turn bet
     

    Posted by rancid

    cant agree with with this rancid  ,flop calling ranges are much wider than turn calling ranges ,lot of the micro players including some regs dont belive a flop cont bet but give up to a turn bet
    many opponents gonna be in tough spot with 10s js or qs theyre  im sure some fold on turn but call on flop
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