What's most profitable give the opponent?

jugglegeek

Since it's TINTIN and it's a 5x raise I imagine that I'm drawing to 3 outs here. Either it's a better ace or it's a broadway pair. Plus I'm out of possition. Is there any reason to play this hand?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
TaraMaiden	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.49
jugglegeek	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£4.29
	Your hole cards	10 A
sweetpea12	Fold
fasho	Fold
TINTIN	Raise		£0.20	£0.26	£4.21
NEOPHYTE	Fold
TaraMaiden	Fold
Jugglegeek	???

rancid

3 bet or fold

KAM99

Voted fold, but would be 3bet or fold depending on villian and how often they were firing from CO/BTN. Never calling or shoving.

GREGHOGG

Do what other nl4 players do, call and then min donk lead for 4p

AMYBR

lolz.

percival09

@rancid why would you 3b or fold? it doesnt have to be a 3b pot to play out of position. youre inflating the pot needlessly and if youre called, youre probz dominated and if villain 4bets youre folding, so youre turning your hand into a bluff

I don't know anything about villain, by what you say he's a nitreg or something? Surely he's raising with low pairs too? what about KQ KJ J10 Q10??? You're showing villain a lot of respect by folding and putting him on such a narrow range. 

percival09

@kam why are you never calling?

is this just a 4nl thing? 

jugglegeek

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent?:

@rancid why would you 3b or fold? it doesnt have to be a 3b pot to play out of position. youre inflating the pot needlessly and if youre called, youre probz dominated and if villain 4bets youre folding, so youre turning your hand into a bluff I don't know anything about villain, by what you say he's a nitreg or something? Surely he's raising with low pairs too? what about KQ KJ J10 Q10??? You're showing villain a lot of respect by folding and putting him on such a narrow range. 
Posted by percival09

I folded because I don't think it's ever going to be a raise with a hand like 99 or 89s etc. As you say it could be KJ+/JTs/QTs as well as AT+ and TT+ but if I call what sort of flops am I going to like and do I necessarily get paid off. On all ace high flops where I'm ahead I'll be lucky to get more than a c-bet out of him and most time's I'll just get tripple-barrelled for all my stack by a better ace. I'm not even guarrenteed a big pot if he has KJ and it comes AKx.

I thought about 3-betting to fold to 4-bet. But if he called the 3-bet I could end up c-betting and then having to fold to a raise later in the hand.

As for reads I don't know TINTIN's style of play. Just that he's always on NL4 tables and he's massivly profitable. Thought it would be best to stay out of his way

percival09

I don't even think a 3b is that bad, it's ok to do it when there's a late positionraise from villain who steals a lot. I just don't like it when people disregard calling alltogether, it's ok to do it

here I think folding is fine though, you'll find many better spots to get involved. If you're going to avoid playing hands like this vs tintin why sit on his table?

grantorino

If his range is JJ+, AJ+,obv fold. That's very tight range for co open from reg though. 3b turns your hand into a bluff which is ok v some villains. Calling absolutely fine v lots of people

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KAM99

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent?:

@kam why are you never calling? is this just a 4nl thing? 
Posted by percival09

Because I hate playing passive poker OOP, as it generally it costs  more. Making a 3bet doesn't always turn my hand into a bluff here as some have suggested, as a lot of the time against a CO raise A10 is going to be the better hand. Sure I could call and C/F a flop I miss, but I don't massively like it. So many times you'll call OOP and the fall into a silly c/c situation that costs you more than the 3bet preflop would have to suddenly find you are outkicked etc.

Again, I do weigh all this up against who i'm playing against. I'm less likely to do this against a total nit that is raising the CO like 10-15% as odds are he will have a hand and I'm just not going to bother a lot of the time. For example if against me I can raise the CO and BTN a lot. **** if I'm on a LAG mode I'll be raising the BTN 100% if folded to me, and the CO 35-40% at least. And then flip to tighter etc as needed based on what I got on my right and left to deal with on each table.

And as a final note.. Ok I'll change "never" to "not to often" for calling. I will sometimes do so to balance out what I may do from BB. I found that calling on BB was causing me some issues leak wise so did change my play from it about year back. But each to their own in poker often, as if we all played it the same guess it would soon become boring.

percival09

I agree with your last sentence, nothing wrong with different opinions if you can explain them

Like I said, it does completely depend on your opponent, sometimes you can fold, sometimes call and sometimes raise... I just think players are too apprehensive about playing oop if its not a 3b pot, yes c/f often seems weak and it probably is, but that isn't your only option... you can c/r, donk leading on low dry flops .. having predictable play isn't good

p.s. kam check your inbox, I wanna pm you about the $10.000 challenge, but don't wanna hijack this thread

EvilPingu

I guess you could throw in a 3bet from time to time here, but the best option is just to fold the hand IMO, especially considering this villain will have a fairly tight opening range and we'll have to play the hand out of position. Quite often, we'll hit an ace and be outkicked, or hit a 10 and be behind to an overpair against this villain, and we'll probably have to pay off at least one street of value before we can get away from the hand. We're never going to be particularly happy if we hit one pair, and it'll just get us into trouble, so it's an easy fold here for me. If we're on the button, I don't mind calling, but out of position, just fold.

Some people think "Omg I can't fold A10 pre to a single raise, it's too strong", but there's nothing wrong with folding. 

rancid

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent?:

@rancid why would you 3b or fold? it doesnt have to be a 3b pot to play out of position. youre inflating the pot needlessly and if youre called, youre probz dominated and if villain 4bets youre folding, so youre turning your hand into a bluff I don't know anything about villain, by what you say he's a nitreg or something? Surely he's raising with low pairs too? what about KQ KJ J10 Q10??? You're showing villain a lot of respect by folding and putting him on such a narrow range. 
Posted by percival09

better options than calling, by calling you either going to station off or not get a lot from prs u out flop

depends on oppo range in co as to if u fold or 3 bet

u can 3 bet here and bluff or 3 bet because yor ahead of co raising range

depends on oppo tendancies, so if oppo flats 3 bets ip with all Ax that dominate you then you c bet/bluff and take it away with the worse hand - same if oppo flats with prs, rep flop/turn etc.. and take it away


a lot just depends, can't really think of many reasons to call unless your just going to go passive and c/c verus aggro co raiser - even though we still gotta flop something to c/c and catch bluffs

KAM99

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent?:

I agree with your last sentence, nothing wrong with different opinions if you can explain them Like I said, it does completely depend on your opponent, sometimes you can fold, sometimes call and sometimes raise... I just think players are too apprehensive about playing oop if its not a 3b pot, yes c/f often seems weak and it probably is, but that isn't your only option... you can c/r, donk leading on low dry flops .. having predictable play isn't good p.s. kam check your inbox, I wanna pm you about the $10.000 challenge, but don't wanna hijack this thread
Posted by percival09

Yeah as stated in my first post. My general thought would be to fold it as I'd prefer playing any suited connnector over a hand like this OOP and possibly in a dominated situation.

EDIT: Just checked my private messages, and nothing there. Not sure sometimes how well the PM works on here. i sent one to jams I think once that he didn't get... Was it long one? Can you resend?

simonnatur

For me this is dependant on how active raiser has been. A10 is too good not to defend with if he's been opening in late posn a reasonable % of time. For sure I'ld be proceeding with caution if an ace flops.

I dont think you can just say "he's a winning player I should stay out of his way" , surely part of being a winning player is opening a fairly wide range of value hands in late posn.?

simonnatur

I think you also need to consider his raise in relation to his standard sizing.  Is 5x std for him? I've seen quite a bit of discussion about making larger opens at NL4 if blinds tend to auto-defend 3x raises with atc.

Lambert180

I believe 5x is nearly 100% standard for this player, and the fact he's a winning player at these stakes means he probably has a relatively narrow value range for opening. It also means that if you do catch him on the odd time he has a worse hand like KQs, you're gonna find yourself either being outflopped or the times you do come off better on the flop, you're unlikely to get paid much for it.

I know it's tight but I voted fold, I don't think he is ever opening a worse Ax hand, so you're either up against a dominating hand, or a pair where you won't really know where you are because he probably makes the exact same raise with big PPs as he does with smaller ones, so you won't know if he's hit a set or his JJ (for example) is ahead of you on 24T rainbow flop anyway. The odd time as I say, you'll be up against a worse hand like KQ and you'll either get outflopped or not get paid off.

grantorino

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent?:

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent? : better options than calling, by calling you either going to station off or not get a lot from prs u out flop depends on oppo range in co as to if u fold or 3 bet u can 3 bet here and bluff or 3 bet because yor ahead of co raising range depends on oppo tendancies, so if oppo flats 3 bets ip with all Ax that dominate you then you c bet/bluff and take it away with the worse hand - same if oppo flats with prs, rep flop/turn etc.. and take it away a lot just depends, can't really think of many reasons to call unless your just going to go passive and c/c verus aggro co raiser - even though we still gotta flop something to c/c and catch bluffs
Posted by rancid

This is general comment, not particularly about posted hand

Why do we have to flop something if we flat pre? 

If you 3bet pre you are still bluffing unless you think he calls with worse (assuming you are folding to a 4bet) even if you are ahead of his opening range. You may still decide this is better if you don't think you can play hand profitably oop against his range, even if you are ahead, but it's essentially a bluff

We can't just auto win the pot by cbetting/ barrelling, otherwise just do it with every hand, wish it was that easy. 3betting pre just means we play a bloated pot oop against a stronger range if called, we gain the betting lead, but play v a much stronger range. We also put in a lot of money in pot by 3betting then cbetting, often enough to get to showdown if we flat pre.

rancid

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent?:

In Response to Re: What's most profitable give the opponent? : This is general comment, not particularly about posted hand Why do we have to flop something if we flat pre?  If you 3bet pre you are still bluffing unless you think he calls with worse (assuming you are folding to a 4bet) even if you are ahead of his opening range. You may still decide this is better if you don't think you can play hand profitably oop against his range, even if you are ahead, but it's essentially a bluff We can't just auto win the pot by cbetting/ barrelling, otherwise just do it with every hand, wish it was that easy. 3betting pre just means we play a bloated pot oop against a stronger range if called, we gain the betting lead, but play v a much stronger range. We also put in a lot of money in pot by 3betting then cbetting, often enough to get to showdown if we flat pre.
Posted by grantorino

I did say 3 bet or fold, in this example it’s an easy fold

If we flat then surely we are heavily looking to flop something or we bluff or bluff catch with ace high

If we 3 bet in situations like this then we have a lot more leverage pre and post

Not saying you should always 3 bet, very dependant on a lot of things

There are obviously situation where calling is fine, don’t think this is one of them –hence options are 3 bet or fold

 

Don’t think there’s a black and white answer, just depends !