butchered the river again, thoughts please

jams88

My biggest losing hand to date, don't overly like playing master cash because of situations like this but wasn't much choice at the time. Line check for the whole hand please. Check the river?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
synergy	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£7.11
siwalk111	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£10.11
	Your hole cards	K A
MochaXS	Raise		£0.40	£0.55	£24.72
071985	Call		£0.40	£0.95	£7.91
jams88	Raise		£1.30	£2.25	£24.43
craig11281	Fold
synergy	Fold
siwalk111	Call		£1.20	£3.45	£8.91
MochaXS	Call		£0.90	£4.35	£23.82
071985	Call		£0.90	£5.25	£7.01
Flop
		K 6 9
siwalk111	Check
MochaXS	Check
071985	Check
jams88	Bet		£3.10	£8.35	£21.33
siwalk111	Fold
MochaXS	Call		£3.10	£11.45	£20.72
071985	Fold
Turn
		2
MochaXS	Check
jams88	Bet		£5.50	£16.95	£15.83
MochaXS	Call		£5.50	£22.45	£15.22
River
		8
MochaXS	Check
jams88	Bet		£7.00	£29.45	£8.83
MochaXS	All-in		£15.22	£44.67	£0.00
jams88	Call		£8.22	£52.89	£0.61
MochaXS	Show	8 8
jams88	Show	K A
MochaXS	Win	Three 8s	£51.49		£51.49

rancid

sigh

bet more turn

you could c/c or b/f river, think when oppo shoves river your beat

set up for river shove may just be best

you can play 100bb on mc tables, don't have to play 200bb

jams88

In Response to Re: butchered the river again, thoughts please:

sigh bet more turn you could c/c or b/f river, think when oppo shoves river your beat set up for river shove may just be best you can play 100bb on mc tables, don't have to play 200bb
Posted by rancid

Looking back turn is abit small in relation to pot. Need to get used to playing this deep you bet 50bb on a normal table there is bery little left to shove on river. Thought it was one of those iv put this much in so may just commit it all shoves by oppo, was pretty certain i had him beat as AA must raise again pre or atleast on the turn, flopped set raises before river, flush was back door so unlikely tbh had no idea what to put him on thought maybe kqs or jj,qq?
 I dislike playing 100bb against opponants who are 200 deep if you know what i mean

percival09

completely readless I bet turn bigger, like £7, and either shove river or c/f to a shove

it's hard to analyse readless tho, need to know what his calling 3b range is, what he'd do with tp, what he'd do with  a flopped set etc... I'd probz be scared on the flop but you pretty much have to bet the turn again

KAM99

This is more about really woefully bad play with 88 realy compraed to your AK. I mean what possible range of hands does he put you on preflop when you 3bet? I mean if he thinks you raise quite light then maybe you could see him calling flop to test if you have hit, but calling turn is suspect as you are quite likely raising AK or better PP than he has.

Think if you bet more on turn he folds, but maybe not. He maybe just one of those donks that won't fold a PP no matter what happens. I guess if you are truely not sure what he is on then you could check back on the river, as I'm not always massively opposed to this if you really are clueless as to his holdings, though would have wanted a bigger turn bet to do so.

So in short I don't have an issue with your line other than maybe betting more than half pot on turn. I guess you cuold check back the river if totally unsure he isn't milking you, though a check on river is normally a good spot to value bet, but against some passive players I might not, as they love to sit and let you take yourself to value town.

And guys on advice check postions.. can't C/F on river as he is in postion.. Can check behind, or B/F or B/C

simonnatur

I dont mind checking behind on turn against a capable opponent - or at least against one who won't stack off with worse kings/PP's.

The pot is becoming very large considering our moderate hand strength and the texture of the flop --  ie there are few, maybe no draws he can reasonably have.  Given that AK is such a large part of our range, what hands do we think he will continue with?

percival09

duhhhhhhhh

I probz shove then, sometimes I check maybe

jams88

I havent been 3betting light i believe i have only 3 bet 1 pot previous to this with kk which i fired strong on all streets and won with at showdown if he has been paying attention to these things.

I very nearly checked back the river and thought this is the sort of spot i often lose value took a couple of seconds to study the board and its so dry i just couldnt place him on a hand i lose to. given that villian is sitting with a full stack presumed him to be atleast partically capable.

In summery turn is to small and check back river?

KAM99

In Response to Re: butchered the river again, thoughts please:

I havent been 3betting light i believe i have only 3 bet 1 pot previous to this with kk which i fired strong on all streets and won with at showdown if he has been paying attention to these things. I very nearly checked back the river and thought this is the sort of spot i often lose value took a couple of seconds to study the board and its so dry i just couldnt place him on a hand i lose to. given that villian is sitting with a full stack presumed him to be atleast partically capable. In summery turn is to small and check back river?
Posted by jams88

Villian dependant a bit, but yes in some cases I would do this because the board was so dry its not likely he is on a draw, and so you have to be looking at PP below king that can't lay it down, or a king with a weaker kicker in most cases. And at turn they call in most cases I take the PP off the table too if they can play at all, and so can only see a weaker king or a bigger hand than I have. Again player dependant, but I'm not unhappy to check it back against some players and lose a bit of value when I'm not sure what they can be calling me with that makes to much sense.

jugglegeek

There is a section in Harrington's cash book where he repeatedly refers to a concept of "small hand, small pot; big hand, big pot". Although a lot of Harrington is outdated and doesn't apply too well to online NL hold 'em (only 4-betting with AA/KK for example) I think small hand small pot does apply to micro-stakes online cash.

Basically without some sort of read that your opponent is a loose calling station who will call off a full stack with one-pair, or a bit of history with the villian that will make him think that you would get a full stack in will less than one-pair, then you should be looking to control the pot with one-pair hands.

In short, after your flop bet is called (on this pretty dry board) I would be looking to pot control on the turn. What's wrong with checking back the turn and then getting the rest of the value on the river? You have possition so if your opponent does have you beat with a set or two-pair etc then he will likely have to bet out on the river and you can call him for a smaller pot with TPTK. He may also try to value bet worse king and he may even try to reverse float you on the river thinking you will be scared of the flush draw getting there.

Say the river is checked to you after you check behind on the turn. You now have loads of opptions, the pot is £11.45 and you have £15.22 in the effective stack. Unlikely you are going broke unless you call a check-shove.

Basically I think it is folly to try and stack someone for nearly 250BBs with just TPTK

jams88

Putting lessons learned into practise

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
CAPITALISM	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£10.47
Natsu	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£8.21
	Your hole cards	10 10
moonboym26	Raise		£0.20	£0.35	£2.96
bolly580	Fold
rancid	Fold
jams88	Raise		£0.80	£1.15	£17.45
CAPITALISM	Fold
Natsu	Call		£0.70	£1.85	£7.51
moonboym26	Fold
Flop
		9 4 7
Natsu	Check
jams88	Bet		£1.20	£3.05	£16.25
Natsu	Call		£1.20	£4.25	£6.31
Turn
		6
Natsu	Check
jams88	Bet		£2.70	£6.95	£13.55
Natsu	Call		£2.70	£9.65	£3.61
River
		2
Natsu	Check
jams88	Check
Natsu	Show	7 4
jams88	Muck	10 10
Natsu	Win	Two Pairs, 7s and 4s	£8.92		£12.53

BR still steadily decreaseing though but must be due some run good anytime soon lol

jugglegeek

Played perfectly in my oppinion. after check calling two streets there is nothing that the villian could check-call with on the river. You have got value out of flush draws by betting on the flop and turn, but the only hand that you can reasonably expect to beat that might call 3 streets would be As9s or Ks9s. Your hand has plenty of showdown value but bet the river here and you might get raised, facing a tough fold that you might not be able to make. nh well played.

As for BR don't be afraid to step back to NL4 if you've lost a few buy-ins. It's not an admission of defeat. Bankroll managment is about stepping back as well as knowing when to step up.

patwalshh

I think first hand is a shove on river vs most villians. You're losing value from so many worse kings. Second hand is an easy check back on river just because board is so polorised, in that its dry, its unlikely he's calling you with worse.

KKrippler

I havent read the other comments  but the check back on the river for your latest hand is bad.

Your being results orientated.

With the stack sizes, just put oppo all in on river.

Terrance

Think ul with first hand. just make players notes and give the squishy stress ball a good going over.

jugglegeek

In Response to Re: butchered the river again, thoughts please:

I havent read the other comments  but the check back on the river for your latest hand is bad. Your being results orientated. With the stack sizes, just put oppo all in on river.
Posted by KKrippler

What range of hands do we put our opponent on that will cold call a 3-bet pre flop, then call on the flop and turn and then call a shove on the river? By the time we get to the river the villian either has us beat or had a draw that didn't get there. Either way I don't think there is any value to be had on the river

grantorino

Hand 1 bet turn bigger, jam or check river. As played fold to the shove

Hand 2 jam river as played. I'd prob check the turn if I don't think I can get 3 streets