ok i know i played this bad,but how do you play it!

pod1

kendo1909	Sit out
rancid	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£14.07
Christ666	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£4.91
	Your hole cards	K 8
pod1	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£15.97
	Raise		£0.50	£0.95	£10.97
jamboGJ	Fold
rancid	Fold
Christ666	Fold
pod1	Call		£0.20	£1.15	£15.77
Flop
		K K 4
pod1	Check
	Check
Turn
		K
pod1	Check
	Bet		£0.20	£1.35	£10.77
pod1	Call		£0.20	£1.55	£15.57
River
		A
pod1	Check
	Bet		£2.00	£3.55	£8.77
pod1	Raise		£4.78	£8.33	£10.79
	Call		£2.78	£11.11	£5.99
pod1	Show	K 8
	Show	A A
pod1	Win	Four Kings	£10.27		£21.06

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pod1

really got stuck here, min raise pre had me thinking he was strong pre (seen him do it earlier with kk) . i checked flop expecting him to bet , when the turn comes i know i want to start to build the pot but with  3 kings on the board what do i bet? river card was lovely but again what do i bet? its like 4 to a flush ,how much do we bet so big full houses dont fold? lost so much value here i feel. i left his hand in although it shouldnt make a difference.

jugglegeek

For what it's worth I fold pre. Raising K8s UTG seems a bit spewy. The flop is obviously good but I think it's right to check. If you think he's really strong then go with your reads on the turn. Strong means JJ+ and AK so he can't have AK or KK so it's aces queens or sometimes jacks. Maybe bet about 90p on the turn and then £3 on the river. As played I don't see what's wrong with shoving the river. It's a very polarised situation and the size of your bet is unlikely to make the slightest bit of difference to what your opponent does. If he's calling a min raise on the river then he's also calling a shove in my oppinion.

BorinLoner

Yep, just fold this pre-flop. If you decide to open with it then fold to the raise. By calling we're giving ourselves the "opportunity" to play K8 out of position, without the betting lead. If you do that a thousand times do you think you'll win or lose money? The answer is that you'll almost certainly lose, so it's a -ev call even if it's only a min-raise.

I know that you're thinking "If I hit my flush I can win a big pot", but the truth is that's only half of the equation and you need your opponent to also have a sufficiently big hand to pay you off and that won't happen very often. More often you'll hit a piece of the flop and you'll lose that bit more than you should.

Fast forward to the river and you should simply check-raise all-in. If he has an Ace he'll call any amount and if he doesn't have an Ace he won't call at all.

EvilPingu

Haven't posted on a Poker Clinic thread for a couple of weeks, and I find this hand particularly interesting so I'll stick in my £0.02

Pre-Flop

Most of the time, I'm not going to be too harsh on someone for opening the action with a marginal hand. K8s is marginal, but it's not a horrible hand to play in position. Definitely open this hand from the button and maybe from the cutoff, but in the hijack I think it's better to fold. Opening isn't horrible if you've got nits on your left and stations in the blinds, as you'll get position most of the time and be able to take the pot down with a c-bet.

When we get min 3bet, this puts us in an awkward spot. A lot of (generally bad) players do this with premium pairs, and we're getting 5/1. The villain has basically telegraphed his hand strength to us, especially with our reads previously, so I don't think calling is horrendous as long as we aren't going broke with one pair. However, we are out of position.

Flop

I would really like a donk lead here. We've already worked out from previous reads that he likely has a premium pair. If he has a premium pair, then that's a brilliant flop for them, and we can definitely get value by leading the flop, which is what I would do at these levels against the average player. Against a competent player, you'd check and allow them to c-bet, then just flat call, but I've been playing for 8 months now, and I'm yet to see a competent player min 3-bet premium pairs when 100bb deep in a cash game, so I'm thinking at this point that the villain in this hand is quite fishy and not thinking much beyond what his own cards are, so I can get value here.

There's only 1 King out there, and if he's got it, then I think we have to go broke, we'll be getting it in against AA/QQ/JJ/TT more than we'll be getting it in against AK here.

Turn

Okay, we've turned quads. We know he can't have a King for obvious reasons, so given our reads, he can only really have a big pair. He's now got Kings full of something. We know he's almost certainly got a house, and we've got quads, and all the money should be going in. We won't be expected to have Quads here as we're meant to check to death when we have quads, and premium pairs probably make a 4bet pre, so our opponent will either be thinking "OMG ACES. ALL IN!!!!" if he's a fish, or if he's a thinking player then he'll probably put us on a small/mid pocket pair, or some random junk which is just trying to steal the pot. Even if he's got a hand like AQ/AJ, he may still think that it's the best hand, and he probably shouldn't be folding to a single bet! Pretty much every single hand that he can possibly have here is going to at least call a bet, or maybe raise and allow us to get the money in, so there is absolutely no reason to be checking the turn in this spot.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking "OMG Quads, I have to check", when infact, you're just missing a ton of value. Yes, there are spots where checking Quads to death is the right thing to do, but this definitely isn't one of them.

River
So we've spammed the check button to death with quads, got absolutely no value from our hand up until this point, and the nut worst river card ever has come down, and we aren't going to get another penny from QQ/JJ/TT if he holds one of those hands. Sigh. Even more reason for leading the turn.

The villain is almost certainly going to check back QQ/JJ/TT here. I'm not sure what I'd do on this river tbh, because I wouldn't get there in the first place. The only thing I'd make sure of is that when I put money into this pot on the river, it's my entire stack.

--------

In summary: Both players played this bad. There actually isn't a single thing in this entire hand from anyone that I like, apart from the 3 players who folded pre-flop! Actually, I lied, I kinda like the villain's flat call on the river. 

Get money in on the turn, especially as the villain won't suspect quads, which he'd expect you to check to death.

pod1

thanks guys, 3 very thoughtful and well constructed replys. i hated the way i played this and that was the reason i put it in here. the line i took after the flop led me down a stupid path of my own making.

rancid

fold pre

bet flop
bet turn
bet river

bet as hard and as fast as you can

KAM99

As others have said fold this preflop. to many novices players see any suited hand and play it, which is bad. A bad hand is a bad hand regardless of if it is suited, and this is because it only adds about 2% to a hands strength being suited. So while as Pingu said this is ok to open raise with from postions like CO or BTN I wouldn't want to be doing it from to early a postion.

As played I can see Pingu's point about donk leading the flop as villian has pretty much turned his hand face up lot of times at htis level with the rubbish raise that screams he has a big hand but didn't want to lose all action with a real raise. However, I don't mind checking to the raiser on the flop either, as good chance he cbets it. Either option is ok, though either leading or C/C the flop would be ring alarm bells in lot of players minds that you may well have a king.

That said you have to try to get decent value with your good hands, and so go with it and hope they have got a big enough hand to call or raise etc. Always better to try and get value and them fold than let them get to a cheap river showdown to find they really had a strong hand they would have had trouble folding.

pod1

its been a long time since i been called a novice lol !!

bet as hard and as fast as you can. thats the point mate, with 3 ks down what is right ,without playing my own hand face up!!

walked away with a £10 pot, when with a big bet on flop, turn it could have been a lot less. i agree the river shoulda been a jam but even that i would think against a large % of players i could have them folding. really need to adapt better when i move between levels.

KAM99

In Response to Re: ok i know i played this bad,but how do you play it!:

its been a long time since i been called a novice lol !! bet as hard and as fast as you can.  thats the point mate, with 3 ks down what is right ,without playing my own hand face up!! walked away with a £10 pot, when with a big bet on flop, turn it could have been a lot less. i agree the river shoulda been a jam but even that i would think against a large % of players i could have them folding. really need to adapt better when i move between levels.
Posted by pod1

Above wasn't my intention to imply that you were, just that its a common habit in novice players to play any suited cards just because they see flushes in their mind. Many other reasons you may have done this like playing loose on purpose, or a tight table and so on. Just saying in general its not a hand I'd play to often other than from a good postion.

And yep, as for value if you can get more great. I had similar spot today and I bet out, more often as lot of people just won't believe you would bet out with trips because they think its to obvious etc. So often they talk themselves into trouble with pocket pairs.

drumahai05

i would have shoved the river after his raise u had it won anyway and he may have called your alin nowt to lose really:))

DrSharp

UTG with these cards is a fold. Meh, dont mind checking flop to aggressor pre, but check raising. Lead turn and river.