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u stacking off here????

D_LegendD_Legend Member Posts: 335
edited June 2012 in The Poker Clinic
am i getting the imp odds to stack off here.

knowing that my oppent reraising range is repping over pair's or at least top pair good kicker wrost case set/ better flush?

obv it a allin or fold hand
superbil Small blind  £0.05 £0.05 £7.49
D_Legend Big blind  £0.10 £0.15 £20.08
 Your hole cards
  • K
  • Q
   
bolly580 Raise  £0.30 £0.45 £13.11
joseph0107 Fold     
richtea Call  £0.30 £0.75 £9.70
kevniamh07 Raise  £0.50 £1.25 £8.38
superbil Fold     
D_Legend Call  £0.40 £1.65 £19.68
bolly580 Call  £0.20 £1.85 £12.91
richtea Call  £0.20 £2.05 £9.50
Flop
  
  • 2
  • 10
  • 6
   
D_Legend Check     
bolly580 Check     
richtea Check     
kevniamh07 Bet  £1.03 £3.08 £7.35
D_Legend Call  £1.03 £4.11 £18.65
bolly580 Raise  £6.17 £10.28 £6.74
richtea Fold     
kevniamh07 Fold     
D_Legend ?????????    
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Comments

  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited June 2012
    Think as its a C/R shove vs two players I'd be surprised if you are not up against a set. That said against the possible range of hands he might have i think its a call really. A10 you are ahed of in equity, and against most overpairs not massively behind when compared to the 2:1 pot odds. Worst case is the set though when you going to be looking at 3:1 to outdraw him, but as thats worst case I think call is right with two overcards and second nut draw.

    Just a point though, you don't really have any implied odds in making the call to take into account. Its just the odds of hiting vs his possible range, as there will be no more betting to come on further streets.
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  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,462
    edited June 2012
    Fold or 4bet pre. Considering it's a min 3bet from the button, which usually at these levels screams of a fish with a monster.

    I know folding sounds nitty, but there's not much going for us in this spot.

    1) If we hit our K or Q, given the action, we could very easily be dominated by AA/KK/AK/AQ and go broke.
    2) We're out of position to a player who has shown massive strength by min 3betting an UTG open and a call.
    3) We're out of position to the UTG raiser, who is also likely to have a strong hand.
    4) We're not closing the action, so there's no guarantee that the UTG raiser or the caller won't 4bet, in which case, we've just donated 50p to the pot.

    We should be folding here. If you're going to play the hand, put in a cold 4bet, although I'm still not keen on doing that. Calling is the worst of the three options.

    *****

    As played, it's probably a fold. Given the button's min 3bet, we're almost always up against a semibluff with the NFD which has us in terrible shape, or a set. I can't see someone choosing to check/raise with a 10 here (unless it's 10x of spades, which we're still not in great shape against) as they'll only get called when they're beat, and you'd probably expect JJ+ to 4bet pre a lot of the time.
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  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited June 2012
    Actually, the worst case is the nut flush draw. It's entirely possible that AT or AJ of spades could be out there and you'd only have six outs against those hands.

    I think you should fold this pre-flop, to be honest. Calling a raise and a 3-bet out of position doesn't seem too wise with just KQ. You're not closing the betting and if any of the players behind you 4-bet, you're only going to have donated an extra 4BB to the pot. The minimum 3-bet is often going to be extreme strength, too, so you're really only going to be happy when you flop a monster hand as one-pair hands are likely going to be costly.

    On the flop the only hand I can think of that we're not in really bad shape against, that would check-raise after a bet and a call, is a top-pair and a flush-draw hand. If he has JT of spades, he might check-raise but all the other hands that are likely to check-raise us are hands that have us dead to either nine or six outs.

    We'd have to pay another £11.88 to win £17.02 but we're between 3/1 and 4/1 to win the pot at this stage against everything but that JT, 9T type hand. Looks like a fold to me on the flop.

    You probably should have done the check-raising yourself on this flop, though.

    EDIT: After reading EvilPingu's post, you probably don't need to bother with mine.
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  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited June 2012
    In Response to Re: u stacking off here????:
    Actually, the worst case is the nut flush draw. It's entirely possible that AT or AJ of spades could be out there and you'd only have six outs against those hands. I think you should fold this pre-flop, to be honest. Calling a raise and a 3-bet out of position doesn't seem too wise with just KQ. You're not closing the betting and if any of the players behind you 4-bet, you're only going to have donated an extra 4BB to the pot. The minimum 3-bet is often going to be extreme strength, too, so you're really only going to be happy when you flop a monster hand as one-pair hands are likely going to be costly. On the flop the only hand I can think of that we're not in really bad shape against, that would check-raise after a bet and a call, is a top-pair and a flush-draw hand. If he has JT of spades, he might check-raise but all the other hands that are likely to check-raise us are hands that have us dead to either nine or six outs. We'd have to pay another £11.88 to win £17.02 but we're between 3/1 and 4/1 to win the pot at this stage against everything but that JT, 9T type hand. Looks like a fold to me on the flop. You probably should have done the check-raising yourself on this flop, though. EDIT: After reading EvilPingu's post, you probably don't need to bother with mine.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Odd, i see him paying £5 more into a £10 pot. Either i'm misreading it badly or you see something I'm not?

    If it is £5 into a £10 he is getting 2:1 pot odds. Against AA (no club) he is about 37%, against 66 or similar is is around 25%, against A10 (least likely) he is 54% favourite, against QQ its about 50-50, KK he is 40%, and against say As10s he is 20%.

    So if all of that is true at worst he is looking at 4:1 to win (a10), and at best he is ahead. So for me yeah its pretty close, but I don't see a call as shockingly bad, but fold would be ok as well I guess. Just said against a possible range that some loose players may shove the call wouldn't be bad or wrong as from the pot I see he isn't far off right against a range of hands.

    Don't disagree about the preflop stuff mentioned though. :)

    EDIT: Forget this. I did misread it. For some reason when I first read it I thought bolly was all in. That would change my opinion a lot I suspect. Would need to rework it out, and busy right now. hehe :) Suspect I agree with it being fold though with what he has left behind.
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  • flame80flame80 Member Posts: 11
    edited June 2012
     Would have pushed a think its a easy push on 5-10p level, wonder if the high stakes
     level players  think the same???
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  • BLACK_MASSBLACK_MASS Member Posts: 401
    edited June 2012
    no
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  • zingzing Member Posts: 333
    edited June 2012
    never fold pre

    flop is borderline, probably a fold given he's over 100bb but a shove isn't terrible
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  • D_LegendD_Legend Member Posts: 335
    edited June 2012

    TY for the feed back dudes =)  clearly need to do some improve on my odds just so confusing at the mo with what goes where but i'll get there i got heart and comitment =)

    but here are wat every rec player cares about the results !!!!!!!




    Flop
      
    • 2
    • 10
    • 6
    		   
    D_Legend Check     
    bolly580 Check     
    richtea Check     
    kevniamh07 Bet  £1.03 £3.08 £7.35
    D_Legend Call  £1.03 £4.11 £18.65
    bolly580 Raise  £6.17 £10.28 £6.74
    richtea Fold     
    kevniamh07 Fold     
    D_Legend All-in  £18.65 £28.93 £0.00
    bolly580 All-in  £6.74 £35.67 £0.00
    D_Legend Unmatched bet  £6.77 £28.90 £6.77
    D_Legend Show
    • K
    • Q
    		   
    bolly580 Show
    • J
    • J
    		   
    Turn
      
    • 10
    		   
    River
      
    • 7
    		   
    D_Legend Win Flush to the King £27.50  £34.27
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  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited June 2012
    This villian is never raising here without beating TopTop so its weather your willing to get it in against an over pair or a set imo
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  • Batkin88Batkin88 Member Posts: 1,682
    edited June 2012
    Isn't this a pretty standard fold ? The player who donk led ruined your hand here. The worst hand you can put him on is AK with the ace of spades but as said above he could and more likely holds AT AA KK QQ JJ here so your crushed by the majority of his range. If it was like £3 yeah call but he is showing you he has an overpair by his bet size and you basically have to cross your fingers and hope for JJ to leave you with all your outs
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  • KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited June 2012
    I did look at this again this morning, as didn't have time last night. But I was right in my first post if i'd read the post correctly first time in that if he was all in on the flop the call would have been right. However, as it actually was with him £6 in with £6 behind he was never folding, and so in this spot with what you've commited based on the odds a fold is going to be better against his possible range. Your average equity is likely to be about 40% against his range here, and so taking a flip will be -EV in the long run.

    Course if you knew he had JJ or even QQ wouldn't be so bad, but overall its a fold on the flop to the raise.
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