Maths in Poker

DOOOOG

Hi,

 Just ordered a book on Poker maths so thought I would ask how much people use maths in their game.

 Do the better players spend a lot of time calculating pot odds, outs etc? Or are other aspects of the game more important to think about in the short space of time yoou have to think in online poker, such as reads on your opponent, net sizing etc. etc.

 Or is it just a question of personal style.

Cheers,
Doug

KAM99

Ok, personal style definately has a case in point, but thats not the complete answer. For one you generally find the best poker players in the world also tend to be intelligent. YOu don't find to many of them to be dummies, and most of them will have a solid up to exceptional grasp of their odds in any given situation. Some players live don't worry as much about it (doyle brunson for example plays more on his feel of the hand), but even those that play more on reads etc will have some idea of basic maths of situations.

So, should you learn it? Yes, is the short answer, as it makes you a more complete player, and anything you add to your game makes it better. Even in fast pace online games you have time to do math calculations, even when playing multiple tables. This does take practice, but a lot of situations are the same or similar, and so over time you just know what postion you are from an odds postion withot having to actually calculate it.

YOu should do most of your calculations before the action reaches you. So preflop have an idea of how you are going to play your hand based on preflop action coming before you. IE are you going to be making a good call or raise if you get raise before you, or raise and3bet before you etc. On the flop you should know what outs you have to make your hand before the action gets to you and know the hand odds this gives you, and so then if facing a bet you only have to calcuation the pot odds quickly to have answer if you are getting a good price.

Anyway, maths is not the be all and end all of poker, but understanding pot odds, hand odds and implied odds can certainly help improve you game and make less mathematically incorrect plays that cost you money etc. Good players never stop learning. Look at say Phil helmouth. Good player, but refuses point blank to accept the new players have anything to teach him, and hence lot of the reason he tends to get pwned in cash games every time he sits down in one with the new generation of players.

DOOOOG

In Response to Re: Maths in Poker:

Ok, personal style definately has a case in point, but thats not the complete answer. For one you generally find the best poker players in the world also tend to be intelligent. YOu don't find to many of them to be dummies, and most of them will have a solid up to exceptional grasp of their odds in any given situation. Some players live don't worry as much about it (doyle brunson for example plays more on his feel of the hand), but even those that play more on reads etc will have some idea of basic maths of situations. So, should you learn it? Yes, is the short answer, as it makes you a more complete player, and anything you add to your game makes it better. Even in fast pace online games you have time to do math calculations, even when playing multiple tables. This does take practice, but a lot of situations are the same or similar, and so over time you just know what postion you are from an odds postion withot having to actually calculate it. YOu should do most of your calculations before the action reaches you. So preflop have an idea of how you are going to play your hand based on preflop action coming before you. IE are you going to be making a good call or raise if you get raise before you, or raise and3bet before you etc. On the flop you should know what outs you have to make your hand before the action gets to you and know the hand odds this gives you, and so then if facing a bet you only have to calcuation the pot odds quickly to have answer if you are getting a good price. Anyway, maths is not the be all and end all of poker, but understanding pot odds, hand odds and implied odds can certainly help improve you game and make less mathematically incorrect plays that cost you money etc. Good players never stop learning. Look at say Phil helmouth. Good player, but refuses point blank to accept the new players have anything to teach him, and hence lot of the reason he tends to get pwned in cash games every time he sits down in one with the new generation of players.
Posted by KAM99

Thanks for the response, that's a really helpful answer. The book I've ordered is supposed to outline some short cuts for pker calculations which should help with the online timings.

 I'll do some study and start adding it to my game.

Cheers,
Doug

KAM99

In Response to Re: Maths in Poker:

In Response to Re: Maths in Poker : Thanks for the response, that's a really helpful answer. The book I've ordered is supposed to outline some short cuts for pker calculations which should help with the online timings.  I'll do some study and start adding it to my game. Cheers, Doug
Posted by DOOOOG

One simple shortcut for doing pot odds calculations if it helps, which is the 4 and 2 method. Its not 100% accurate in some situations, but will get you roughly the correct odds for your hand.

Basically to get the odds of making your winning hand just count the number of outs that you have and times that number by 4 if you are on the flop and by 2 if you are on the turn. This will give you the percentage chance that you will make your hand. Then to turn it into odds just take away one from the division of your percentage by 100. Bare in mind when you times by 4 on the flop, this is if you are going to see BOTH turn and river. So you'd use it for all in calls really. As if there is possibility of more betting on the turn, then you should really only be using 2 as your number to get your odds really.

So if you had enough outs that  you had 25% chance to hit your hand then you have 100/25= 4 and then just subtract one and you know your odds of making your hand are 3:1.

Then to apply that to if you make a call or not just get your pot odds. So if the pot is currently say £6 and someone bets out £3 to make it £9 total you now know you have to call £3 to possibly win £9 out there. Thats 3:1 pot odds. If your hand odds are lower than your pot odds then its generally a good call mathematically. If your hand odds are higher than the pot odds than over the long term making the call would lose you money.

Hope that helps a bit, though of course this method only gives you the direct odds you have, and doesn't take into account implied odds. This is where you factor in what the other person has left in their stack, and if you believe you will get more out of them if you make your hand after you call.

DOOOOG

In Response to Re: Maths in Poker:

In Response to Re: Maths in Poker : One simple shortcut for doing pot odds calculations if it helps, which is the 4 and 2 method. Its not 100% accurate in some situations, but will get you roughly the correct odds for your hand. Basically to get the odds of making your winning hand just count the number of outs that you have and times that number by 4 if you are on the flop and by 2 if you are on the turn. This will give you the percentage chance that you will make your hand. Then to turn it into odds just take away one from the division of your percentage by 100. Bare in mind when you times by 4 on the flop, this is if you are going to see BOTH turn and river. So you'd use it for all in calls really. As if there is possibility of more betting on the turn, then you should really only be using 2 as your number to get your odds really. So if you had enough outs that  you had 25% chance to hit your hand then you have 100/25= 4 and then just subtract one and you know your odds of making your hand are 3:1. Then to apply that to if you make a call or not just get your pot odds. So if the pot is currently say £6 and someone bets out £3 to make it £9 total you now know you have to call £3 to possibly win £9 out there. Thats 3:1 pot odds. If your hand odds are lower than your pot odds then its generally a good call mathematically. If your hand odds are higher than the pot odds than over the long term making the call would lose you money. Hope that helps a bit, though of course this method only gives you the direct odds you have, and doesn't take into account implied odds. This is where you factor in what the other person has left in their stack, and if you believe you will get more out of them if you make your hand after you call.
Posted by KAM99

Excellent, thanks for this! I've been working through some examples in my head and I already know I routinely makes some dodgy calls, so will start applying this. Much appreciated!

I'll go through some of my hand histoories to and apply this, should be a good learning experience.

Cheers,
Doug