suspicous looking 5bet time to fold?

jams88

Player seems pretty solid. Capable of flaoting and attempting a steal post flop but pre seems to be standard given the smallish size of the 5bet can we put villian on aces here?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
FASTASFCUK	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£3.71
UP	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£40.85
	Your hole cards	K K
jams88	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£21.52
duonross	Raise		£1.10	£1.55	£18.69
topchip	Fold
benc	Fold
FASTASFCUK	Fold
UP	Fold
jams88	Raise		£3.20	£4.75	£18.32
duonross	Raise		£6.80	£11.55	£11.89

Lambert180

You are 200BB deep, but I still don't think I can ever fold KK here.

Are you not turning your hand into a bluff by 4betting with the intention of folding to a 5bet?

TWRAMYEP

Villian capable of having AK here for example, thinking its the nuts.

Pipunch

It's a shove with KK. If you run into aces you could catch the K but if not it's just a cooler and we move on.

jams88

In Response to Re: suspicous looking 5bet time to fold?:

You are 200BB deep, but I still don't think I can ever fold KK here. Are you not turning your hand into a bluff by 4betting with the intention of folding to a 5bet?
Posted by Lambert180

Im 4betting and calling a shove but the 5bet looks so strong this deep. Ran kk into aa twice yesterday and qq into kk twice all pre 100bbs and shrug it off but 200bb deep this screams stregth does it not?

EvilPingu

There is an argument for folding, not because it's a 5bet, but because of our position, and our opponent's position.

- You've raised from UTG, where your range is going to be tightest.

- He's 3bet an UTG open which he knows is quite a tight range, and there's also 4 players left to act, so his 3bet range is much narrower than it would be otherwise.

- You've then 4bet a much narrower 3bet range, which means you're representing something really strong.

- He's 5bet you despite knowing that you've 4bet and you probably have a premium hand here, so he needs to have something which plays well against a range which consists mostly, if not exclusively of premium hands. The only hands which do this are AA/KK. We have two kings so it's unlikely our opponent has the other two.

The question we should ask ourselves is, given position, is our opponent ever going to 5bet and stack off with QQ or AK?

In later position, I think we have to get it in and if we're against Aces, then so be it. However, as it's UTG and UTG +1, once we've been 5bet, Kings don't feel quite so great all of a sudden. It feels horrible folding Kings pre, and people have said this is a cooler, but really, is it? I think that we can possibly get away from this if we want to. It's tough, but I think it is foldable sometimes.

EDIT: As we're 200bb deep, was this a Master Cash table? If so, you can get the hand ID and stick it in the Live show thread, Sky experts will be able to analyse your hand in the Poker Clinic show between 8pm and 9pm tonight.

jams88

It was a mastercash so may do that and see what they say if i can catch a repeat of it sometime.
I think i had your reasoning but at the same time had the thought never fold kk in cash running running round and round in my mind and ended up calling fairly certain i was behind should have listened to my instincts on this one as i think this is one of the few times i should have been able to get away from kk pre

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
FASTASFCUK	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£3.71
UP	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£40.85
	Your hole cards	K K
jams88	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£21.52
duonross	Raise		£1.10	£1.55	£18.69
topchip	Fold
benc	Fold
FASTASFCUK	Fold
UP	Fold
jams88	Raise		£3.20	£4.75	£18.32
duonross	Raise		£6.80	£11.55	£11.89
jams88	All-in		£18.32	£29.87	£0.00
duonross	All-in		£11.89	£41.76	£0.00
jams88	Unmatched bet		£2.03	£39.73	£2.03
jams88	Show	K K
duonross	Show	A A
Flop
		5 4 5
Turn
		5
River
		A
duonross	Win	Full House, Aces and 5s	£38.33		£38.33