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Been posting a bit this week so better put a hand up to be looked over:
AMYBR
Member Posts: 3,432
Interesting live NL100 hand vs unknown. Couldnt quite figure river betsizing, thoughts?
6handed nl100 table. Flop goes HU. Oppo has me covered with £320+, I've not long reloaded to £250. No real reads, seems mostly solid however.
I open 6's to £3 in unentered pot OTB, BB (£320+) 3bets to £12, I flat IP.
£25 in pot Js 3h 3s flop. Oppo leads £15, obv never folding to one bullet, call.
£55 in pot Js 3h 3s 6c (wheee). Oppo fires again, £30. I dont tend to flat to much vs knowns these days as have tendancy to be most aggro player @ table in 3betpots, but unknowns..hmmm. A raise here can obv look like we floated flop to bluff later street/draw, more often/as often as a made hand. So pop back to £75, mainly hoping he has an Asxs/OP etc.
£205 in pot Js 3h 3s 6c 10s. We have £150 back. Oppo cautiously checks river to us.
Getting the impression he hated being borderlined clickbacked @ turn, yet flush getting there how to proceed. Oppo(s) generally will sigh call flush here but likely muck TP.
Wasnt sure, thoughts?
6handed nl100 table. Flop goes HU. Oppo has me covered with £320+, I've not long reloaded to £250. No real reads, seems mostly solid however.
I open 6's to £3 in unentered pot OTB, BB (£320+) 3bets to £12, I flat IP.
£25 in pot Js 3h 3s flop. Oppo leads £15, obv never folding to one bullet, call.
£55 in pot Js 3h 3s 6c (wheee). Oppo fires again, £30. I dont tend to flat to much vs knowns these days as have tendancy to be most aggro player @ table in 3betpots, but unknowns..hmmm. A raise here can obv look like we floated flop to bluff later street/draw, more often/as often as a made hand. So pop back to £75, mainly hoping he has an Asxs/OP etc.
£205 in pot Js 3h 3s 6c 10s. We have £150 back. Oppo cautiously checks river to us.
Getting the impression he hated being borderlined clickbacked @ turn, yet flush getting there how to proceed. Oppo(s) generally will sigh call flush here but likely muck TP.
Wasnt sure, thoughts?
Comments
I'd be thinking he's either gonna call or fold regardless of bet size, so go for a jam for max value for the times he doesn't believe you or has the flush.
But also I can think of many things to do for many reasons, was simply (as thread states) putting up a reciprocol hand for thoughts as was interested to hear regular contributors reasoning.
But thankyou for the vieled insult.
My previous post was neither looking for bites, or meant as an insult. Bankroll management is a massive part of poker which is used to make sure people have fun while playing, and i would not any players to lose an amount they could not afford to lose, because they are playing out of their depth (not saying this is your case). Just in general.
Have to admit however am slightly conflicted as turn bet size was designed to GII vs river blank/spade.
But dont agree it has to be an auto shove at all.
Again, as played what range of hands call us on river when we ship? Very few unless oppo is terrabad. And as stated, cant really bring in dynamic/image as oppo is an unknown.
Sure we can ship, totally viable option. Vs many regs I would happiliy do as merge/bluff/value, rep. But it may need rethinking vs an oppo with no context. That was the point of the thread. But obv its always 100% ship vs everyone all of the time, right?......sigh.
But I see what your getting at if you shove what will call as the flush got there, oppo can only call with worse if oppo thinks your bluffing or making a stupid bet on river with overpair.
just shove if oppo has bigger house then o well
what hands does oppo flat turn raise with :S Jx, overpairs, fd's and obviously JJ ?
edit: still think shove on river gets called by flushes enough
Obv never checking back. Ever.
As played its pretty unlikely oppo has a flush or better boat. So why would we shove? Especially after showing such strength on the turn. However turn bloat is designed to GII on river spades getting there.
But when oppo checks river what can he really have? A flush that he doesnt love? Or a J that he doesnt love. So best we are hoping for is a sigh call with a flush, which is pretty unlikely as played. Its just far more likely oppo has a Strong J, that will sigh fold to a ship given prd board and flush getting there.
However oppo may be trapping once he has hit flush on river, or cautiously c/c'ing following turn bloat. But merging the 2 as an unknown, if he is bad, he could just as easily be looking to crai a nut flush type hand, but easily may reconsidor non nut flush hands given line @ turn when we ship.
When we ship river our value is based on oppo being bad enough to call. But theres plenty in his range even if bad to auto muck.
If he has a strong J or an overpair (which you seem to have dismissed) he's rarley going to call the turn to fold to a river bet. He will also understand if you bet the river, its going to be an all in 99% of the time.
Also I can't understand the logic of him possibly folding river with a flush. He's not going to call the turn with a FD to muck it to any river bet!
We also have to think would we ever consider making a small river bet with a bluff? I'm guessing the answer is no, which gives us more reason to shove river.
Hard to skin an unknown cat, shoving may not be the best line
Shoving is fine as I said from the very beginning.
But I dont think its a given. Didnt overlook Op at all, if you look back.
Think hand range that c/c's river shove is alot narrower than you may think.
PS. Please tell me you think Arnie is better than Ronnie? lol
Agree flop is pretty marginal vs unknown and not knowing intention on later streets. Perhaps folding is in fact best here.
As I set out in opening thread this hand is in a vacuum vs unknown readless, without any dynamic or context. Vs regs I have history with and know that this can be a bit of a merge I would be inclined to shove river more often than not. But as stated vs an unknown I think range that call river as played are just too narrow.
I agree that oppo is very unlikely to hold a hand strong enough to call the river shove that was set up. Went smaller than £85, being £60 as a thin value bet vs a lone J, but leaving some credible perception of FE in case oppo was bad and intending to crai after making a flush.
We can only shove river for value. I strongly suspect we'd get thin value at a much higher frequency that having a shove called, once we recognise oppo likely has a lone J.
Also true about live stack off, but vs the unknown...myeh.
gonna be a super thin v/b on river for one pair hands to pay you off
in the same breath we never v.b river with one pair hands are we
so if your shoving river it's gotta be FH/flush or da bluff
only hand i think we v/b here for say £60 is a flush
a lot depends on dynamics and meta and all that b0ll0x but hey ho