Was this a good shove and just a bad call

jackAherts

Hi all

I have not really been playing for all that long and am just starting to study the game, would love for all the help I could get really. The guy in this hand had been raising the button alot and then pot betting the turn. Previously when he done this I raised and he snap folded. I was just wondering due to my read was this a good shove and a really bad call? Thanks

ineedapea	Small blind		100.00	100.00	11400.00
jackAherts	Big blind		200.00	300.00	10957.50
	Your hole cards	8 6
millk	Fold
***	Raise		600.00	900.00	4687.50
ineedapea	Fold
jackAherts	Call		400.00	1300.00	10557.50
Flop
		4 2 J
jackAherts	Check
***	Bet		1300.00	2600.00	3387.50
jackAherts	All-in		10557.50	13157.50	0.00
***	All-in		3387.50	16545.00	0.00
jackAherts	Unmatched bet		5870.00	10675.00	5870.00
jackAherts	Show	8 6
***	Show	K 10
Turn
		10
River
		10
***	Win	Three 10s	10675.00		10675.00

pr1nnyraid

Where to start..

jackAherts

Well thats constructive.....thought this was the place to come for help, obviously not...

davelufc

Just fold pre, no need to play 8 6 o/s oop.

Oppo probably thought " why would you shove if you had something here? " 

Wait for a better spot to bully  imo. 54 BBs at the start of the hand, dont get involved.

jackAherts

I just thought as he was stealing my blind everytime and putting a continuation pot bet everytime on the flop and then folding to a raise I would call and see the flop to see what he would do. I dont normally get involved in spots like this but he was constantly doing it, I thought that due to my read this was a good place to gain some chips, so what do you think made him call with k high and no draw?

bearlyther

This is just a fold pre we cannot play 86 out of position however if you decided to play the hand i would have preferred a 3 bet preflop it is not the place to make a move on the flop of j42 we can represent nothing here.

pr1nnyraid

Generally cba to give pointers on this hand as played, but happy to dispense some general advice which is as follows-

You need to be aware of your perception to other players. You have a called a 3x raise oop with junk, this shows me (and your opponents) you probably play most hands and can therefore have pretty much any 2 post flop. This means your bluffs are not as credible. Therefore no this is a good call, assuming the opponent based it on his notes of your play.

Best of luck going forward darling. x 

Donut64

 I fold pre or if I want to play it I re-raise and take the upper hand.

 The thing is you have no draws to realistically to hit and lowish cards so it is a bad push.

 Its a good call by the oppo if he as seen you make this move before and taken note of it. Plus he as put in a quarter of his chips in after you checked to him so if he thinks you are on a draw he could well be ahead as he was, if you have hit a pair he as to overs for a re-draw.

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call:

Generally cba to give pointers on this hand as played, but happy to dispense some general advice which is as follows- You need to be aware of your perception to other players. You have a called a 3x raise oop with junk, this shows me (and your opponents) you probably play most hands and can therefore have pretty much any 2 post flop. This means your bluffs are not as credible. Therefore no this is a good call, assuming the opponent based it on his notes of your play. Best of luck going forward darling. x 
Posted by pr1nnyraid

You should be forum banned for this post

jams88

you have to consider oppoanants stack size when you make the shove looks how much he has already commited to the handif he has any part of that flop or any draw he has to call regardless of his thoughts of your play. If he has been raising your blind constantly play back at him by all means but find a better hand to do it with and shove with a hand that if it hasnt hit atlast has some equity overcards, or a draw as it is you are drawing extremly thin when he calls

Batkin88

I will try to be helpful unlike some of the above:

You say he has been stealing your blinds alot and that is what has caused you to do this, there are far better ways of countering this player. You can either wait for a decentish hand and shove it pre and hope for a call from tripe like KT or you can play back at him (Like you attempted). Your reads are clearly correct but you need to consider stack sizes when making this type of bluff. Personally I would 3 bet this hand pre quite small to about 1300, if he shoves insta fold but if he calls which is most likely for a player like this you now have initiative and can c-bet most flops and make him fold. His call isn't good but you cannot think like that, you need to realise what you could do to play this hand better and not what the villain could do.
Going back to stacksizes he has 3x pre and then pot with aboout 65% behind, a player of this calibre is never folding so it isn't a good shove with 8 high.

keep posting gl

jackAherts

Hi Batkin

Many thanks for your help and to all above that have give me constructive help about my play, I understand I am not up to the standard of play as you guys but that is why I am here and asking for all the help I can get. I have noticed that even on this forum some are not as helpful as others but cheers guys for all the help and hopefully you will be willing to help me some more in the near future with my game

pr1nnyraid

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call:

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call : You should be forum banned for this post
Posted by Batkin88

Why's that do you disagree with what i said? 

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call:

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call : Why's that do you disagree with what i said? 
Posted by pr1nnyraid

I think most of your posts are pointless, the clinic is there to help not act like a pathetic big man. There was no need to even post on this thread, making rude comments and being a complete tool.
Putting 'darling' and a kiss at the end is rude and derogative, very childish. But you are probably use to being an arrogant 'big man' and getting your own way so why would we expect different?

rancid

I actually like the move, call to check/jam on flop )
If oppo been raising btn 3x and c betting pot size alot then it's a great way to win chips
oppo call is just like lolz, obviously thinks you have draw so maybe not a great move versus this player

Think most are missing the point, poster made a plan pre to shove on c bet so.... hats off

pr1nnyraid

What are you on about 'bigman'?! Who says I'm a man at all. Bore off. 
The 1st post was on my phone and there was a paragraph underneath that didn't post. 
I offer my opinion and advice to the best of my experience and logic, people can take it or leave it and you aren't required to go around policing the forums. If some of my posts go over your head that's understandable but to say they are pointless is questionable. 
If you took the time to disect my 2nd post purely for its analytical merit you might realise it has some credibility. I've discarded all of the issues of the hand because it is far more important that op starts thinking about his game as a whole rather than this spot in isolation. So go back and re read it and use it for what it's worth. 
Why is it that people automatically assume anyone who posts is a superior player to the villain they post about, this clearly can't be the case everytime

profman15

Sorry mate but you should not be in this hand at all. Fold prelop.......
However, you did have that as a plan.......so fair play. Mind what will other players think of you shoving in future? "Aaaaah here come 86o again"...just a thought mate as good players try to find out what ranges you play or call with and also what you shove with. Good luck with your poker...

jackAherts

Thanks for all the help guys, to be honest I had not been playing many hands and had been playing pretty tight. It is not a move I would usually make here with complete air and not a hand I would call a raise with oop, but as I had a fairly good read on the player I knew exactly what he would do if he missed the flop. I didnt think it was a terrible move just unfortunate to get the bad call with king high....but I know nothing lol

Batkin88

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call:

What are you on about 'bigman'?! Who says I'm a man at all. Bore off.  The 1st post was on my phone and there was a paragraph underneath that didn't post.  I offer my opinion and advice to the best of my experience and logic, people can take it or leave it and you aren't required to go around policing the forums. If some of my posts go over your head that's understandable but to say they are pointless is questionable.  If you took the time to disect my 2nd post purely for its analytical merit you might realise it has some credibility. I've discarded all of the issues of the hand because it is far more important that op starts thinking about his game as a whole rather than this spot in isolation. So go back and re read it and use it for what it's worth.  Why is it that people automatically assume anyone who posts is a superior player to the villain they post about, this clearly can't be the case everytime
Posted by pr1nnyraid

This isn't a debate

JSTFLIPPIN

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call:

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call : This isn't a debate
Posted by Batkin88

Hahaha owned it

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Was this a good shove and just a bad call:

I actually like the move, call to check/jam on flop ) If oppo been raising btn 3x and c betting pot size alot then it's a great way to win chips oppo call is just like lolz, obviously thinks you have draw so maybe not a great move versus this player Think most are missing the point, poster made a plan pre to shove on c bet so.... hats off
Posted by rancid

Sorry but for me making you mind up as to what you are going to do post flop before you have even seen the flop or what your opponent does is senseless.

I don't understand people you go into a hand pre flop with a 'plan'. When we play through a hand against one or more opponents, we react to the board texture and what our opponents do. Thinking ahead in a hand is a must, i.e deciding to B/F a river before we bet or what turn cards we are going to continue barrelling on when we are bluffing, however this is reacting to what is presented to us, whereas the above is just making stuborn decision blind IMO.