DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!!

profman15

Hi folks
DTD and i want a safe start but KK appears. Have i played it poorly? What would you have done. Any thoughts as to what the others may have had. I was wary of a set or straight there and wouldn't call big raise on flop especially as it wasn't closing the action. No real tells early on and i hadn't been active.
 Any thoughts about what my mindset should have been from where i stood etc? Funny same thing happened last week with same hand and i did myself out of the pot then. Not sure if i have here or not.
 Both are well-known players in pot i recognised here so ididn't think they'd be shabby . I'd love to know your hands fellas for interest's sake. Good news though, i managed to final table the tournament so in hindsight the fold was 'correct'...lol.
If i get them next weekthey're going in the MUCK!

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance&&&
Small blind 10.0010.004990.00((((((
Big blind 20.0030.004980.00 Your hole cardsKK   profman15Raise 60.0090.004940.00mac24Fold    ALANSK100Fold    monkey123Call 60.00150.004940.00&&&
Call 50.00200.004940.00(((((
Call 40.00240.004940.00Flop  596   &&&
Check    (((((
Check    profman15Bet 120.00360.004820.00monkey123Fold    &&&
Call 120.00480.004820.00(((((
Call 120.00600.004820.00Turn  3   &&&
Check    (((((
Bet 300.00900.004520.00profman15Call 300.001200.004520.00&&&
Call 300.001500.004520.00River  6   &&&
Check    (((((
Bet 750.002250.003770.00profman15Fold    &&&
Fold    (((((
Muck    (((((
Win 1500.00 5270.00(((((
Return 750.000.006020.00

Lambert180

Bet alot more on the flop. I'd bet more than 1/2 pot on near enough all flops if I'm gonna bet anyway but you should always bet more with a strong hand when it's 4way. Don't call the turn, raise it up.

You could still be ahead on the river against hands like A9 that probably see the 6 pairing up as a pretty safe card but think folding is probably right, but that's all because you let everyone play very cheaply.

BorinLoner

I don't really agree with folding on the river, simply because with the 3:1 pot odds you only need to beat 1/4 of his range to make this a good call and you can afford it. I would think that more than 1/4 of his hands are likely to be weaker than yours and at this stage I'd expect him to bet bigger than half-pot on the river if he had a big value hand. I don't think that the turn and river change a huge amount, either. I think the river is a call.

As it happens this board isn't super dangerous for you. With no flush draws and the only straights being 78, 74 and 24 (would he call pre-flop and on the flop with 24 and 74?). If he's got the 6, good luck to him but I wouldn't be afraid to call and I'd expect alot of 9's to be in his range.

I've said before that I don't think there's a problem with half-pot bets. I don't see a big problem doing so on multi-way flops either, especially with a one-pair hand. Big bets in multi-way pots just look scared and give away what type of hand you have, in my opinion. Make the same bet you always make. If you make a big bet into a multi-way pot with an overpair it's tough to get called by a weak hand, too. 

If you make the half-pot bet, just be sure to re-evaluate through the streets - so if you get two callers on a two spade flop and another spade hits on the turn, it's time for a bit of pot control.

grantorino

Raise more pre

Bet flop bigger

Call river

rancid

bet more flop
raise turn


a/p raise river

profman15

Cheers guys

Some very good points as i expect from you guys especially Borin's assessment which is really well put and the pot odds argument is a compulsive one.

 However may i make a couple of points about 'bet more on the flop'. At this stage, and you must have seen it yourselves, people seem to love to limp these days maybe trying to trap with a good hand. I don't see the point myself. Now, with KK, i want people to play with me here. so bet how much more on the flop? 5x BB to win the blinds with KK. Why bother? i want punters. I'm not varying my bets so there isn't a tell. So, what i'm really saying, is that there wasn't a limp or a min raise initially and as the aggressor, i made a 1/2 pot bet when it was checked to me. Both players call, not just one, so twice the risk of someone slowplaying a set, two pair even a straight.

My position between the players didn't help as i wasn't sure if a raise on the Turn would be met by a an AI behind possibly. Maybe, i'm tending towards fearing the worst too much in these situations and needs a more considered approach. As Borin says A9 etc is viable here and so on so TPTK would encourage this as they may see my UTG raise as 15% range and so two higher cards. That third player was my undoing, i feel.

Players at this stage do take punts and suited connectors and spp's then catch and win big pots in these situations, don't they?

Any views would be appreciated as i've seen your play and i'm impressed. 
Hey i've got it!!! From now on, early doors.....

I'LL JUST SET MINE WITH ANY PAIR EH? (JOKE, HONEST)

Lambert180

The 3x pre is absolutely fine.

But on the flop you want to get max value and also charge them plenty if they wanna try catching up. Say a player has T9, J9, Q9, K9, A9 (which are all believable), he will call your 120 bet sure, but he'll probably also call a 190-200 bet which is what you want him to do when he's crushed.

RogueCell

BorinLoner is spot on (as usual).  Only reason I feel qualified to comment is that I play DTD - you have to play your good hands much stronger than this imo, there are always others coming along for the ride, so charge them.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!!:

BorinLoner is spot on (as usual).  Only reason I feel qualified to comment is that I play DTD - you have to play your good hands much stronger than this imo, there are always others coming along for the ride, so charge them.
Posted by RogueCell

youve also been listening to lots and lots of dohhhhh. 

Great to see you on clinic.

Also +1 with borninloner. 

profman15

In Response to Re: DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!!:

In Response to Re: DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!! : youve also been listening to lots and lots of dohhhhh.  Great to see you on clinic. Also +1 with borninloner. 
Posted by The_Don90

HI DON

i PRESUME ITS GREAT TO SEE bORIN lONER OR rOGUE CELL IN CLINIC

percival09

bet more flop.

callllllllllllllll r1v3r

profman15

In Response to Re: DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!!:

I don't really agree with folding on the river, simply because with the 3:1 pot odds you only need to beat 1/4 of his range to make this a good call and you can afford it. I would think that more than 1/4 of his hands are likely to be weaker than yours and at this stage I'd expect him to bet bigger than half-pot on the river if he had a big value hand. I don't think that the turn and river change a huge amount, either. I think the river is a call. As it happens this board isn't super dangerous for you. With no flush draws and the only straights being 78, 74 and 24 (would he call pre-flop and on the flop with 24 and 74?). If he's got the 6, good luck to him but I wouldn't be afraid to call and I'd expect alot of 9's to be in his range. I've said before that I don't think there's a problem with half-pot bets. I don't see a big problem doing so on multi-way flops either, especially with a one-pair hand. Big bets in multi-way pots just look scared and give away what type of hand you have, in my opinion. Make the same bet you always make. If you make a big bet into a multi-way pot with an overpair it's tough to get called by a weak hand, too.  If you make the half-pot bet, just be sure to re-evaluate through the streets - so if you get two callers on a two spade flop and another spade hits on the turn, it's time for a bit of pot control.
Posted by BorinLoner[/QUO


Hi Borin

An excellent analysis may i say. However, one point i would make is that i do not close the action so with possibly two opponents my equity in the pot is affected surely.
Also the sufficient odds for me will be affected because at the stage i make a decision there is still a player behind to act. Consequently deciding whether one player will fold 1/4 of the time is not accurate because there are, at that point, two players. Yes?
I only ask this as you seem knowledgeable about this situation and its a point that i'm unsure about. TY for your response....it's made what i should consider clearer, somewhat though this point needs some clarification if you don't mind

BorinLoner

So much complimentary talk of me... When's the other shoe going to drop?

Profman you do need to think about the guy still to act behind you but you can't just be afraid because he's there. Look at how he's played the hand so far: Check-call on the flop, check-call on the turn, check on the river. It's not a line that screams of a straight, a set or a two-pair type hand as, in a three way pot with so much interest being shown by other players, most of the time you'd see a raise from those hands on the flop or turn. It looks like a one-pair or a draw type hand.

Now, that does mean he could have just a six which would be annoying. That would leave him calling two streets with second pair and two other players involved. Usually that means he has to have a draw to go with it. The most rational draws are 67 and 64 but that's a super-narrow range of hands. His check-calling through the streets means his range is pretty wide and almost exclusively weak.

I honestly don't think it's worth worrying about him check-raising, as it's something that happens so infrequently on the river. Also, in this particular hand, if he does check-raise the river we needn't worry about folding the best hand as he's incredibly unlikely to be doing this without a big hand.

The biggest thing I'd say about this river is that if you were ahead on the flop, you're almost certainly still ahead on the river. Only the 6 is there to worry about and that's pretty unlikely. The small blind is much less likely to have us beat than the Big Blind but, as I said, with 3:1 odds and loads of chips behind (just in case) this has to be a call. I personally think you're going to be ahead in this spot far more often than not and there may even be an argument for raise-folding the river for value... I would just call though.

(By the way, I remember being sat two seats to your right in the DTD recently. That's not me in the SB is it? Are you being so nice so you can "drop da bomb" on me? Would be funny, lol)

Ploppy33

dont agree that 3x pre is fine - this is a £2 tourney early on - except some of the DTD regs many will call this early 10x any paint card or any 2 suited - J3o seems a particular favorite for some reason.

The ones who do this are NOT folding post flop - regardless even if they need a 7 then a 5 to complete their straight.

No way to know where you are multiway unless u hit so 1st Lv is always 5x for me - only start going back to 3x at 50/100. Also why not inflate pot vs the caller with 2nd pair no kicker?

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!!:

dont agree that 3x pre is fine - this is a £2 tourney early on - except some of the DTD regs many will call this early 10x any paint card or any 2 suited - J3o seems a particular favorite for some reason. The ones who do this are NOT folding post flop - regardless even if they need a 7 then a 5 to complete their straight. No way to know where you are multiway unless u hit so 1st Lv is always 5x for me - only start going back to 3x at 50/100. Also why not inflate pot vs the caller with 2nd pair no kicker?
Posted by Ploppy33

If you make it 5-10x pre-flop you might be called or even raised occasionally but far, far more often people just fold their junk hands. That's awful for us. If we make it 2-3x and they call with J3 and we have KK, that's wonderful for us. That's a dream scenario, particularly if we have position in the hand.

Also, unless we want to make all of our raises 5-10x at this blind level, we can't make those raises with our big hands. People will notice and our range becomes unbalanced. Making it 5x just makes it easy for our opponents to make the correct decisions: They fold their weak hands and call with hands such as low pocket pairs, suited connectors, etc because they know that they've got great implied odds to hit and if they miss they can just check-fold.

Ploppy33

In Response to Re: DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!!:

In Response to Re: DTD early doors......same again?.....bemused....AGAIN!!! : If you make it 5-10x pre-flop you might be called or even raised occasionally but far, far more often people just fold their junk hands. That's awful for us. If we make it 2-3x and they call with J3 and we have KK, that's wonderful for us. That's a dream scenario, particularly if we have position in the hand. Also, unless we want to make all of our raises 5-10x at this blind level, we can't make those raises with our big hands. People will notice and our range becomes unbalanced. Making it 5x just makes it easy for our opponents to make the correct decisions: They fold their weak hands and call with hands such as low pocket pairs, suited connectors, etc because they know that they've got great implied odds to hit and if they miss they can just check-fold.
Posted by BorinLoner

Fold? whats that?

profman15

 Cheers for the reply Borin

Funnily enough looking at it again 99 or 66 for &&& and 87s for &&& would explain the betting involving trapping possibly. I'm trying to consider ranges these day but i feel that earlier there in T's there are so many willing to take a punt. Consequently a UTG raise does not mean players will use the Gap Theory and play only a similar opening hand in this position. So should strategy be different in the early staes. I think so TBH. Maybe when i get bet at i get a 'he's got a set' sickly feelingin my stomach! This attitude needs adjustment possibly. Is this a fair point? By the way i'll 'drop da bomb' if i've got the cards.....i've no favs!!! LOL
PS Hope to see you monday......

>>>>>BOOM!!!!!!!!