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This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?

SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
edited August 2012 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Slykllist Small blind  300.00 300.00 24864.50
**Big blind  600.00 900.00 15660.00
 Your hole cards
  • 7
  • J
   
BEAMER Call  600.00 1500.00 16122.50
GEORGE21 Fold     
2effinRs Call  600.00 2100.00 36492.00
Red_King Fold     
Slykllist Call  300.00 2400.00 24564.50
**Check     
Flop
  
  • 7
  • J
  • 10
   
Slykllist Bet  2400.00 4800.00 22164.50
** All-in  15660.00 20460.00 0.00
BEAMER Fold     
2effinRs Fold     
Slykllist Call  13260.00 33720.00 8904.50
Slykllist Show
  • 7
  • J
   
** Show
  • 8
  • A
   
Turn
  
  • 6
   
River
  
  • K
   
**Win Flush to the Ace 33720.00  33720.00
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Comments

  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited August 2012
    Once I've made up the BB, then I'm not folding on this flop, most players are never gonna do this with a set or a flopped straight.

    BUT.... I just fold pre :)
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  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    Once I've made up the BB, then I'm not folding on this flop, most players are never gonna do this with a set or a flopped straight. BUT.... I just fold pre :)
    Posted by Lambert180
    With the pot odds I just don't think I can fold out of SB for an extra 300
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2012
    Don't hate pre if bb unlikely to raise

    Prefer c/r that flop. When other dude shoves after you lead pot four way I call but I wouldn't be fist pumping
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited August 2012
    whats with the limp fest?

    Happy to complete with 40bigs getting 7/1.

    Call, expect to see the kind of hand he has or the dreaded 10J in limped pot....

    When not 10J/set win a flip and go deep.  B/fing this flop is exactly the same (other than multi way limpage) as b/fing K's.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2012
    fold pre
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  • liamboi11liamboi11 Member Posts: 2,141
    edited August 2012
    dont think you done anything wrong in the hand just vul he had loads of outs roughly 50/50 gutshot plus nut flush draw and if you win this flip you have a massive stack going deep into the later stages of an mtt.

    but defo not folding this flop unless u have reads opponent that he does not do this with anything less 2 pair or better
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited August 2012
    fold pre, direct odds versus likely possibility of flopping what you want is just meh - 2 pair is like 49/1 or something

    now you call and hit 2 pr, what else you going to do FOLD ? Seriously :S

    if you going to fold 2 pr on the flop then just fold pre

    don't like the notion of just making up with junk be it suited or not, we only looking to get lucky - which u did - don't fold )
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  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited August 2012
    I understand the fold pre arguement, but can't agree with it in this spot, I'm getting 7/1 on my money to see the flop, surely folding pre in that situation when 40BB deep is just wrong?
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    I understand the fold pre arguement, but can't agree with it in this spot, I'm getting 7/1 on my money to see the flop, surely folding pre in that situation when 40BB deep is just wrong?
    Posted by Slykllist
    Why do you think it's wrong?

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  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot? : Why do you think it's wrong?
    Posted by grantorino
    Becasue J7 suited against 3 players with random holdings, I'm, 25.7% to win the hand

    btw.... I'm not trying to argue with peoples advise, just wanting to add to the debate, if I'm wrong, I'm more than happy to be proved wrong and learn from it.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot? : Becasue J7 suited against 3 players with random holdings, I'm, 25.7% to win the hand btw.... I'm not trying to argue with peoples advise, just wanting to add to the debate, if I'm wrong, I'm more than happy to be proved wrong and learn from it.
    Posted by Slykllist
    yeah but the hand doesn't end after the preflop action, you also need to take into account reverse implied odds as you could easily be dominated and are not dominating very hands. you're only really going to be happy getting stacks in with 2pair+, which you aren't going to make very often at all.

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  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited August 2012
    1 player to act after me, if he makes a substantial raise I fold, if I miss the flop I don't put in another chip so the most it's ever costing me to see a flop is another 300 chips.

    I'm only ever going any further in the pot if I connect with the flop in a major way, tbh 2 pair is the very minimum I would continue with.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    1 player to act after me, if he makes a substantial raise I fold, if I miss the flop I don't put in another chip so the most it's ever costing me to see a flop is another 300 chips. I'm only ever going any further in the pot if I connect with the flop in a major way, tbh 2 pair is the very minimum I would continue with.
    Posted by Slykllist
    ok, then you aren't getting the odds to call pre
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  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot? : ok, then you aren't getting the odds to call pre
    Posted by yb
    How so?

    7:1 pot odds

    4:1 approx to win the hand
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot? : How so? 7:1 pot odds 4:1 approx to win the hand
    Posted by Slykllist
    you definitely aren't 4/1 to win the hand if you aren't continuing with 1 pair hands
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  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot? : you definitely aren't 4/1 to win the hand if you aren't continuing with 1 pair hands
    Posted by yb
    OK, point taken
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2012
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot?:
    In Response to Re: This deep should I fold here and wait for a better spot? : Becasue J7 suited against 3 players with random holdings, I'm, 25.7% to win the hand btw.... I'm not trying to argue with peoples advise, just wanting to add to the debate, if I'm wrong, I'm more than happy to be proved wrong and learn from it.
    Posted by Slykllist
    Couple of general points, yb has touched on some of them already

    You say you are 25% to win v random hands and are getting 7/1 to call. This 25% is based on all hands reaching showdown. Sometimes you won't get to showdown with what would be winning hands (eg board xxxJ7). Also with so much money behind implied odds are much more important than 7/1 direct. People don't have completely random hands either (although this may be a case where it's not too far off)

    As yb says 7/1 is not good enough direct odds if you are looking to flop 2p+. However you may have good enough implied odds depending on villains. Being oop will reduce these, also players don't stack as light in limped pots. You may also be able to continue with big draws sometimes, again this will depend on villain tendencies

    If you can play perfectly postflop the risk/reward ratio of risking 0.5bb to hopefully win a big pot is also quite attractive. But there are also some reverse implied odds, as when we get it in we will nearly always be on wrong side of any coolers that occur, eg if we get it in on JT7 board, we are more likely to face 98, JT or 77 than T7.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited August 2012
    Just cmes down to your confidence and lines post.  If you lean towards obv mistakes and stacking off light then yes clearly fold pre.  But if your confident in what you want to see and that you can control the action then I have no problem with peeling here.
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  • SlykllistSlykllist Member Posts: 2,888
    edited August 2012
    Thanks all for you posts, much appreciated
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited August 2012
    we could go into the maths of it but if we call pre, like you say we are looking for two pr minimum to get chips in
    Now if your doubting if you should get all your chips in then simply fold pre and wait for a better spot to be playing a hand that you want to play and play well rarther than just making up because 7/1 seems like a nice price.
    Now your seeing a flop versus other random hands, and you have no idea if your ahead !

    Forget the maths side of it, we could probbaly make up with junk all day if we are getting the right price, doesn't make it good in control poker.
    Same could be said of people limping and then it comes to you in the bb and you check your option, and you flop 2 pr and get all your chips in and lose - so not great poker - always makes me feel a bit sick !


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