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Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs

DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
edited September 2012 in The Poker Clinic
Final Table £750 Bounty.

This is usually an automatic shove, but given the short stack and how often the two bigger stacks were calling, I was unsure what to do in this spot.  Thoughts on pre-flop and all streets please.

Reads:
Villian 1 - Only has 4bbs
Villian 2 - Has check/called top pair down and lead out top pair overs etc previously, but has also been caught out with air HU situations.
Villian 3 - Quite tight

Villian 1
Small blind 2500.002500.0022154.00Villian 2
Big blind 5000.007500.00170713.00 Your hole cardsAK   Villian 3
Raise 10000.0017500.00114316.00DoubleAAACall 10000.0027500.0051317.00Villian 1
Fold    Villian 2
Call 5000.0032500.00165713.00Flop  722   Villian 2
Check    Villian 3
Check    DoubleAAACheck    Turn  2   Villian 2
Bet 15000.0047500.00150713.00Villian 3
Fold    DoubleAAACall 15000.0062500.0036317.00River  5   Villian 2
Bet 40000.00102500.00110713.00
«1

Comments

  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited September 2012
    4-handed on a Bounty Hunter final table with 12BB. You pick up AK on the button and there's a raiser in front of you.

    This is an automatic all-in, as I see it. The dead money represents about 30% of your stack, so taking the pot down here and now is a huge boost, AK isn't a massive hand when we miss the flop, you can easily be called by worse and you would (probably) shove here with worse. We're not deep enough to be doing anything fancy, I think, so it's just got to be an all-in.

    As it is, when you miss the flop and it's checked to you I would shove. The other two might have pairs but more likely don't and the pot is now huge. You still can be called by worse on this board, though we really just want to take it down.

    On the turn, if you're calling this bet you need to be willing to call on the river. It's far too big a proportion of your stack to call if you're planning to fold on a fairly blank river.


    I don't even like analysing anything after the pre-flop action because it's such a sticky situation to be in. Just shove pre-flop.
  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs:
    4-handed on a Bounty Hunter final table with 12BB. You pick up AK on the button and there's a raiser in front of you. This is an automatic all-in, as I see it. The dead money represents about 30% of your stack, so taking the pot down here and now is a huge boost, AK isn't a massive hand when we miss the flop, you can easily be called by worse and you would (probably) shove here with worse. We're not deep enough to be doing anything fancy, I think, so it's just got to be an all-in. As it is, when you miss the flop and it's checked to you I would shove. The other two might have pairs but more likely don't and the pot is now huge. You still can be called by worse on this board, though we really just want to take it down. On the turn, if you're calling this bet you need to be willing to call on the river. It's far too big a proportion of your stack to call if you're planning to fold on a fairly blank river. I don't even like analysing anything after the pre-flop action because it's such a sticky situation to be in. Just shove pre-flop.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Thanks for your input Boris.  Did you factor in the short stack (4bbs) when calculating that I should shove pre?
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs:
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs : Thanks for your input Boris.  Did you factor in the short stack (4bbs) when calculating that I should shove pre?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    I don't think we should be considering laddering-up to third when we pick up a premium hand and are short-stacked ourselves. We need these situations to build our stack to look for the win. First pays a heck of a lot more than third.

    However, in this situation I think the short stack might make it even more of a shove: The short-stack is the only bounty we can win and is liable to call off his remaining stack with weaker holdings. Depending on the player, they could call with any Ace, though AT+ would be more realistic. The fact that there is the short-stack and this is a bounty hunter also means that the raiser's opening range will be that bit wider, as they could be looking to take that bounty. If these min-raises have been getting through alot, which the 4BB stack seems to indicate, then that opening range is wider still. This all increases our own fold equity...
  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs:
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs : I don't think we should be considering laddering-up to third when we pick up a premium hand and are short-stacked ourselves. We need these situations to build our stack to look for the win. First pays a heck of a lot more than third. However, in this situation I think the short stack might make it even more of a shove: The short-stack is the only bounty we can win and is liable to call off his remaining stack with weaker holdings. Depending on the player, they could call with any Ace, though AT+ would be more realistic. The fact that there is the short-stack and this is a bounty hunter also means that the raiser's opening range will be that bit wider, as they could be looking to take that bounty. If these min-raises have been getting through alot, which the 4BB stack seems to indicate, then that opening range is wider still. This all increases our own fold equity...
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Short stack was nitty and would be folding everything here except for TT+ AQs+, AKo.

    I agree I mis-played my hand pre-flop and was in a 'shall I, shant I' state of mind and opted for the flat call. I just got stumped because of the short stack. Difference in 3rd-4th payout was £10 (which I didnt realise at the time)
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited September 2012

    This is the easiest shove ever before the flop, it's the dream spot. 

    Next time don't even consider any other options it's nowhere near close!

    As played I'd fold now and start shoving loads. 

    wd on FTing
  • MohicanMohican Member Posts: 1,435
    edited September 2012
    I can't click all-in quick enough pre flop. Even without the min raise in front, all my chips are in the middle. Any action now with 12bb is all-in or fold.
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    smile then shove
  • liamboi11liamboi11 Member Posts: 2,141
    edited September 2012
    I don`t care about laddering at final table I play 4 win 

    Get it in no brainer you only have 12bbs and long term it is a great spot
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    Yup, when you have 12BB every hand you play you have to be willing to play for your full stack, and AK is about as good as it gets. The short stack makes me more likely to shove because he will need to take a gamble at some point with 4BB and you've got a great hand for when he takes his gamble with a raggy ace, a raggy king, or PPs
  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited September 2012
    Yeah I knew I made a mistake as soon as I 'called' lol.  Question is, how should I of played this hand post-flop? River thoughts as I haven't revealed how this hand finished and what range are we putting villian on?
  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs:
    smile then shove
    Posted by rancid
    If you don't smile you will loose the hand. Make sure you get this right!
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs:
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs : If you don't smile you will loose the hand. Make sure you get this right!
    Posted by jams88

    ) If you don't smile when you see AK on a FT then maybe you need to examine your play -

    Don't smile live though, it may give away your hand.

    Sometimes when someone shoves and I see AK - I just laugh )

    But it's no so funny when the A8 hits the bloddy 8 :(

    but that's poker right !

  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited September 2012
    We know I made a mistake preflop, usually I cant click all in quick enough!

    What Im wanting to know now, is your advice post-flop, flop, turn and river?
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs:
    We know I made a mistake preflop, usually I cant click all in quick enough! What Im wanting to know now, is your advice post-flop, flop, turn and river?
    Posted by DoubleAAA
    Well what was your plan going forward when you flat pre?

    What do we know about the villain, was it just the stacks that made you flat pre? or do we know something about the villain that made you think this was a good option?

    Were you just trying to hit an A or a K, or did you have a plan B on these kind of boards?

    I'm doing a beaneh and answering a question with loads of questions! ;)
  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited September 2012
    shove flop when checked to imo
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    Personally, I think alot of AK's strength in these kind of scenarios (shallow stacks) lies in putting people to the test pre, picking up dead money, knowing you're gonna get to see 5 cards if you get called and are almost never gonna be in bad shape.

    So once you've called pre, I think you've lost most of the strength you had with it and would probably be looking to check/fold at the first opportunity as people are so short and with the pot size already are gonna be tempted to call with any PP and any card they've hit on the board, even more so when it's a BH. So you have probably have very little FE on any street and are fairly unlikely to be ahead.

    As you know, the mistake was calling pre, don't compound the mistake by making further mistakes post-flop and not letting go of it.
  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs:
    In Response to Re: Final Table, AKo on btn facing utg min-raise. Someone else only has 4bbs : Well what was your plan going forward when you flat pre? What do we know about the villain, was it just the stacks that made you flat pre? or do we know something about the villain that made you think this was a good option? Were you just trying to hit an A or a K, or did you have a plan B on these kind of boards? I'm doing a beaneh and answering a question with loads of questions! ;)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    I felt I had the best hand on the flop so I elected to check as to induce a bet on the turn albeit a non picture card (except an A or K obviously) as If I shoved the flop I only get called by a hand that beats me or a flush draw (in which case I'm behind anyway).  I was meant to shove the turn but started to level myself as I knew that the villian who lead out may have checked his 7 to the pfr.

    So I elected to call as I was still reasonably sure I had the best hand but was somewhat weary and now hoping for a check on the river (stupid thinking), then when the river came a brick, he shoves, I suddenly levelled myself and thought well he's seen me calling him down, so he has to give me credit for something so therefore he must have the 7 or even the deuce and put me on the 7.  Was now unsure if I call or fold...


    Basically I totally misplayed this hand preflop, felt my flop play was okay, but should of shoved the turn, as I had called the turn I therefore have to call the river.

    Question is, what are we putting villian on and what does he put us on?
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    it's a pretty awful flat pre tbh. 
  • DoubleAAADoubleAAA Member Posts: 954
    edited September 2012
    Guys, we know I've played it awful preflop!  We have all made a bad mistake at one time or another :)

    Im asking about postflop play now, what do we do on flop, turn and especially the river?
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    Fold
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