AKs - 4x and a call

Lambert180

Before I start, I'm not just being results orientated, I wanna see if the hand is played ok.

Obviously I'm never folding post-flop, that's not in question so I'm only really asking about my bet sizing pre and on the flop.

Pre was a bit massive yes lol, and almost certainly a mistake on my part, I never ever usually go this big, dunno what happened, but I was happy to play for stacks and with a limp and a call from 2 50xBB stacks, I was trying to just get them in pre.

My thinking was, I'm getting all my money in post flop no matter what happens so I went really small on the flop to keep in his weaker hands, so he'd be comitted with virtually any hand when I shove the turn. Obviously it did, it kept in his 55 and he got lucky, I'm not bothered about this bit because I want to keep him in with 55 but what are the thoughts about it? Do I just make my normal sized kinda bet on this flop which would be big enough to just put him all in?

Only reads on villian who got to the flop is that he min donkbet 3 streets with 88 on something like K3567 (I know there was only 1 overcard to his 8s, and I'd just called him down with JJ. Obviously now have a note saying he will limp/call an massive cold 3bet with 55 lol.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
TheMunch	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.78
MUTTZNUTZ	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.65
ronnie04	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£2.36
	Your hole cards	K A
X	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£2.00
LIAM92446	Raise		£0.16	£0.30	£10.72
ronnie04	Call		£0.12	£0.42	£2.24
Lambert180	Raise		£0.76	£1.18	£3.18
TheMunch	Fold
MUTTZNUTZ	Fold
X	Call		£0.72	£1.90	£1.28
LIAM92446	Fold
ronnie04	Fold
Flop
		K 9 10
X	Check
Lambert180	Bet		£0.44	£2.34	£2.74
X	Call		£0.44	£2.78	£0.84
Turn
		5
X	All-in		£0.84	£3.62	£0.00
Lambert180	Call		£0.84	£4.46	£1.90
X	Show	5 5
Lambert180	Show	K A
River
		6
X	Win	Three 5s	£4.12		£4.12

percival09

i just put him all in otf. pretty std spot. as played I call

NColley

what are you doing on the flop

look at the stack to pot ratio

you almost deserve to lose to that 2 outer for not putting him in on the flop

Lambert180

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

what are you doing on the flop look at the stack to pot ratio you almost deserve to lose to that 2 outer for not putting him in on the flop
Posted by NColley

I'm aware of the SPR but if I stick him in, I may get him to fold weaker hands. Like I can't see him calling the jam on the flop with 55.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

 +1 to colley u raise 76p preflop and get a caller so pot is around £1.60 and u bet 44p on flop dnt get it should be setting him in here all day long as u could be doing this with a bluff and all your good hands your hands smells of so much strngth when u bet this low just set him in 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

I'm NEVER doing this as a bluff. If I raise to 76p there, I either have AA, KK, AK, and very occasionally QQ. I know you're right it does smell of strength, as it was, but most people don't even notice it, and clearly not in this case as he thought it was weak enough to be worth calling with 55.

This is what I'm asking really, the chips are going in regardless so why not keep the villians range as wide as possible?

NColley

if he folds when you put him all in then you just took down £1.90 uncontested.. it really isn't an issue.

you bet small and a spade/J/Q hits, then what? you start to hate your hand but end up getting it in anyway..

There really isn't any reason to play anything but a straight forward style at 4nl.

Wilhelm

As has already been said, put it in on flop, otherwise OK.

Sometimes call pre.

suzy666

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call : I'm NEVER doing this as a bluff. If I raise to 76p there, I either have AA, KK, AK, and very occasionally QQ. I know you're right it does smell of strength, as it was, but most people don't even notice it, and clearly not in this case as he thought it was weak enough to be worth calling with 55. This is what I'm asking really, the chips are going in regardless so why not keep the villians range as wide as possible?
Posted by Lambert180

My first post, but some of the replies annoyed me!
If your identifying your oppenents correctly then there is nothing wrong with your 3bt. Its big because you hope that some monkey will call and narrow the field IP-which it did!

You post flop play is good for several reasons. 1) if you pot it villain likely sees your range and if you didnt have AK, you probably had TT+ or Kx and he folds. 2) if you pot it you only get called by better and all FD's have their 30%. 3) by betting small you charge the draw (if he doesnt RR), get value (which you did) and maybe entice a bluff.


He got lucky with 2 outs

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call : My first post, but some of the replies annoyed me! If your identifying your oppenents correctly then there is nothing wrong with your 3bt. Its big because you hope that some monkey will call and narrow the field IP-which it did! You post flop play is good for several reasons. 1) if you pot it villain likely sees your range and if you didnt have AK, you probably had TT+ or Kx and he folds. 2) if you pot it you only get called by better and all FD's have their 30%. 3) by betting small you charge the draw (if he doesnt RR), get value (which you did) and maybe entice a bluff. He got lucky with 2 outs
Posted by suzy666

I'm not sure anyone is actually criticising the pre-flop raise size. Given that it's NL4 and Lambert knows his customers, this is fine.

Just want to point out that actually Lambert's flop-bet doesn't charge the flush draw. He offers them better than 5:1 on their money and the correct pot odds to make the call with a flush draw are 4:1. In fact if our opponent has a flush draw, we are giving them much better odds than they need with this bet, so in effect it's charging ourselves to see a flush card. Long-term our opponents make money from us when we do this.

We're not going to be bluffed for 80p either.

Keep posting, Suzy. It's good to have some new contributors. We've lost a few over the last few months so we need new blood.

BorinLoner

So yeah, move it in on the flop. You've only got one-pair and it's a sopping wet board. You probably get called by quite a few worse hands anyway.

rancid

Hand is fine, pre is very big - 48p is about right

wouldn't worry about flop too much, nice size so you get shoved on and anyway oppo calls 3rd of remaining stack off with underpairs

If you shove flop oppo calls off with draw anyway

make note - move on

Lambert180

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

if he folds when you put him all in then you just took down £1.90 uncontested.. it really isn't an issue. you bet small and a spade/J/Q hits, then what? you start to hate your hand but end up getting it in anyway.. There really isn't any reason to play anything but a straight forward style at 4nl.
Posted by NColley

Yes I could take £1.90 uncontested (about 1/2 of which is mine tho) but I could just as easily stack him more times than not.

As I've already said, and as you said above, I'm getting it in no matter what the turn comes, so the turn card is kinda irrelevant. It's a spot where I'm either way ahead or way behind, so he's either flopped set, or an unlikely 2pr, or AA in which case I'm getting stacked whatever happens OR he has PPs that aren't sets or weaker holdings like AT.

So the way I see it, if I'm behind, I'm going bust anyway, and if I'm ahead, I'm probably way ahead and he's drawing to less than 5 outs, so I'm happy to let him try hitting very few outs for the fact it will mean I stack him everytime he misses.

I'm not scared of a spade really, there's 3 x more suited hands that aren't spades than are and he has alot of PPs in his range which can't have FDs, so the FD don't scare me. PPs have 2 outs, any pairs that don't involve my kicker have 3 outs. It's all good saying what if a Q/J comes, but the odds are massively in favour of it coming a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, T, K, A.

This is my thought process anyway, so someone please let me know if there are any flaws and why.

NColley

why are you way ahead or way behind?

this is not AK on K 10 4 rainbow

all the pair + draw combos have a solid amount of equity

villian is going to call any K, any pair+draw, any flush draw and if hes bad he'll call with even worse.. I get the feeling you seem to think that villian will struggle to call with worse.. which is wrong most of the time in this spot.

percival09

my god what is all this talk of balancing........... it really dm. just get it in on this wet board imo after pf action but taking your line isnt horrendous and will have the same result more often than not

Lambert180

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

the flaw i can think of is are u betting 44p if u miss ?  u got to balance your range so if u bet 44 p on the flop are u doing this when u miss aswell if so its ok if not well ya not flawed coz people dnt take much notive on 4 nl but on 20 nl they would u need to keep ya bets consistent  am i right in thinking if u missed this flop u would of set him in here ?
Posted by IDONKCALLU

I don't balance at 4NL.

20NL is a different game and I will play different, maybe that's why you say you struggle at 4NL. I change my bets dependent on my opinion of the flop at 4NL.

grantorino

3b smaller

Flop who cares. Some lol comments in this thread. I'd prob just check it. If betting tiny makes him call with hands he folds to a shove then it's better than shoving, as we are never folding any turn and he never folds flop with any hand with decent equity against us if we shove. 

Also massive lol at balancing v someone that limp cold calls a3b for 40% of his stack, doubt we bluff that board too often anyway

NColley

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

3b smaller Flop who cares. Some lol comments in this thread. I'd prob just check it. If betting tiny makes him call with hands he folds to a shove then it's better than shoving, as we are never folding any turn and he never folds flop with any hand with decent equity against us if we shove.  Also massive lol at balancing v someone that limp cold calls a3b for 40% of his stack, doubt we bluff that board too often anyway
Posted by grantorino

feel free to pick apart my comments if they are bad, i don't mind.

grantorino

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

if he folds when you put him all in then you just took down £1.90 uncontested..
 it really isn't an issue.

 You know better than this

you bet small and a spade/J/Q hits, then what? you start to hate your hand but end up getting it in anyway..

Do you think he ever folds a Q,J or spade on flop to a shove? If not what difference does it make. I'd be much more worried these cards might scare him, but not that worried when he has so little behind

There really isn't any reason to play anything but a straight forward style at 4nl.
Agreed
Posted by NColley

Seeing as you asked:)

Fwiw I dont like Lamberts line, but I think it makes very little difference

Lambert180

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

ofc it does if lambert shoves flop the guy aint calling simples
Posted by IDONKCALLU

See and this is exactly why you're being results orientated and not reading the OP.

I don't want him to fold! I don't care that he got there, I'm happy for him to call with 55 there all day long. You're argument that I should shove because he might hit his 2 outter is silly.

grantorino

In Response to Re: AKs - 4x and a call:

ofc it does if lambert shoves flop the guy aint calling simples
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Oh right so now we bet to make 2 outers fold

rancid

too much talk about a hand on the flop that doesn't even require thinking about

no bet, small bet or shove - who cares ?