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mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot

rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
edited September 2012 in The Poker Clinic
I posted this hand in my thread + here

Not sure about this hand, is pre ok - think I should go more
I got 17bb behind - 12bb effective roughly :S - last 30 or 40 or something - deepish -
Too much to get it in with TPTK versus a donk pot size -
I thought about a fold then called last minute as the time bar started to end
Last thoughts were TPGK or draw - K9/Q9/109 - meh !
oppo seemed happy about their hand, they ain't folding, but am I happy enough about mine versus what is a very strong lead
But I haven't been opening much so it's not like oppo getting annoyed with me is it )

What you guys think, if I lose I am 6bb - ez shove/fold poker but mmm 12bb at risk
gotta say no real reads on this oppo, I not been opening a huge amount - oppo hasn't seem to be defending
To be honest I was playing a few cash tables, so I wasn't paying that much attention at this stage :()

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
splend Big blind   800.00 800.00 12237.50
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • 9
     
vegasman Fold        
rancid Raise   1745.00 2545.00 14390.00
Clackett Fold        
ChirpyChip Fold        
splend Call   945.00 3490.00 11292.50
Flop
   
  • 9
  • 6
  • 4
     
splend Bet   4000.00 7490.00 7292.50
rancid
«1

Comments

  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2012
    Pre fine

    I jam flop v someone that flats from a 16bb stack, even though I hate these spots. 
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    I say FU Splend and shove 
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    I say FU Splend and shove 
    Posted by percival09

    made me laugh )

    something like that , TP - draw mmmm FU with ya donk bet - take that !!!!!!!!
  • suzy666suzy666 Member Posts: 221
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    Pre fine I jam flop v someone that flats from a 16bb stack, even though I hate these spots. 
    Posted by grantorino
    I dont play much tourney, but do play alot of SNG. blind levels are 10min here right?

    I agree with grantorino that post flop you have to jam, villain has any pair or weakish FD, prob would CR any good hand.
    I fold pre (i do note your 5 handed). Reasons are 1) you've 20 BB, find better spots, better position, 2) PFR is too small, any larger wastes chips if called with a hand that has low potential and could well end if trouble (ie TP wk K)
    3) you price the BB in with almost any playable hand, 4) youve opened the door for a re-steal by the 10-15BB stacks.
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : I dont play much tourney, but do play alot of SNG. blind levels are 10min here right? I agree with grantorino that post flop you have to jam, villain has any pair or weakish FD, prob would CR any good hand. I fold pre (i do note your 5 handed). Reasons are 1) you've 20 BB, find better spots, better position, 2) PFR is too small, any larger wastes chips if called with a hand that has low potential and could well end if trouble (ie TP wk K) 3) you price the BB in with almost any playable hand, 4) youve opened the door for a re-steal by the 10-15BB stacks.
    Posted by suzy666
    fold pre ?
    So we only raising with hands we happy getting all in pre flop with 40 players remaining ?
    What hands are you happy getting it in pre flop and also raising with - 3% ?
    So sit tight wait for a hand, no point in blind stealing and picking up 1200 ?

    Sorry at what size stack do you try and pick up chips in a MTT, 30bb + ?

    Maybe this is why SKY needs antes )
  • suzy666suzy666 Member Posts: 221
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : fold pre ? So we only raising with hands we happy getting all in pre flop with 40 players remaining ? What hands are you happy getting it in pre flop and also raising with - 3% ? So sit tight wait for a hand, no point in blind stealing and picking up 1200 ? Sorry at what size stack do you try and pick up chips in a MTT, 30bb + ? Maybe this is why SKY needs antes )
    Posted by rancid
    obviously i dont wait for top 3% ie TT+ to make a move.

    to suggest that sky need antes to help erradicate tight play by poeple like specifically me is ridiculous & rude.

    I answered YOUR query with my opinion. I certainly am not going to detail my raising standards, who how and why i target my blind steals. Play some £11 SnG and find out.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : I dont play much tourney, but do play alot of SNG. blind levels are 10min here right? I agree with grantorino that post flop you have to jam, villain has any pair or weakish FD, prob would CR any good hand. I fold pre (i do note your 5 handed). Reasons are 1) you've 20 BB, find better spots, better position, 2) PFR is too small, any larger wastes chips if called with a hand that has low potential and could well end if trouble (ie TP wk K) 3) you price the BB in with almost any playable hand, 4) youve opened the door for a re-steal by the 10-15BB stacks.
    Posted by suzy666
    1 what's wrong with this spot

    2 pre is pretty standard

    3 pls explain how they are priced in. Why do we not want them to call with worse

    4 true, but how often do they resteal here? We also can call v wide restealing ranges
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : obviously i dont wait for top 3% ie TT+ to make a move. to suggest that sky need antes to help erradicate tight play by poeple like specifically me is ridiculous & rude. I answered YOUR query with my opinion. I certainly am not going to detail my raising standards, who how and why i target my blind steals. Play some £11 SnG and find out.
    Posted by suzy666

    Not being rude, just saying that part of MTT survival is not just about raising with hands you want to get it in with - we have to extract some chips and build a stack

    Your thinking works fine in a SNG, but imo not in a fast paced MTT

    Antes would force action, therefore more players have to get involved
    At the moment people just wait around for hands, that's all I am saying

    take care


  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : Not being rude, just saying that part of MTT survival is not just about raising with hands you want to get it in with - we have to extract some chips and build a stack Your thinking works fine in a SNG, but imo not in a fast paced MTT Antes would force action, therefore more players have to get involved At the moment people just wait around for hands, that's all I am saying take care
    Posted by rancid
    Why does everyone want people to stop waiting around for hands?
  • suzy666suzy666 Member Posts: 221
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : Not being rude, just saying that part of MTT survival is not just about raising with hands you want to get it in with - we have to extract some chips and build a stack Your thinking works fine in a SNG, but imo not in a fast paced MTT Antes would force action, therefore more players have to get involved At the moment people just wait around for hands, that's all I am saying take care
    Posted by rancid
    ok mr sid, perhaps when i first read your replies took it alittle personal-no probs!
    as for antes i have no opinion, and for the mid-late tourney strategy, i would say that in mid pos, A9o (19th percentile?) is a trouble hand. If anyone raises you have to fold, and personally with a call and an A high flop is awful-get it in and hope?
    So you had it good with tp tk & action.
    Your position is very much like an average SNG though. 5 handed, 20-10BB per player/effective stack maybe 10-15BB relative to you. the time to chip up has past(?) and any PFR should be met with push/fold??
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : Why does everyone want people to stop waiting around for hands?
    Posted by grantorino

    maybe it's good if people play tight late on )
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : ok mr sid, perhaps when i first read your replies took it alittle personal-no probs! as for antes i have no opinion, and for the mid-late tourney strategy, i would say that in mid pos, A9o (19th percentile?) is a trouble hand. If anyone raises you have to fold, and personally with a call and an A high flop is awful-get it in and hope? So you had it good with tp tk & action. Your position is very much like an average SNG though. 5 handed, 20-10BB per player/effective stack maybe 10-15BB relative to you. the time to chip up has past(?) and any PFR should be met with push/fold??
    Posted by suzy666

    Think we have very opposing views on how we should play after the bubble has burst and we playing in the money to hit FT.
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    +1 Rancid

    If we only played hands we wanted to get it in with, our game would be pretty transparent and every tourney would be a contest of who can cooler people more than they get coolered themselves.

    As you say, most people should be shove/folding, but the number of hands they are folding massively outweigh the number of hands they are shoving, so when there's a load of free chips in the middle every hand, keep taking them until someone starts fighting back. Obviously each BB is worth more when stacks are shallow and we wanna be picking them up where we can.
  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited September 2012
    interesting debate re bet pf.

    The old me agrees with Suzy666 - it's a marginal hand in earlyish position - so not worth spewing the chips away.

    However the success that Batkin88 has is partly based, as far as I can see, on a much wider opening range than I would normally consider - and may well include A9o early. Hence I'm not sure the old me is right.

    But for sure, if hitting tptk is not good enough to shove over the donk bet, then I wouldn't be betting pre.
  • huuuuumehuuuuume Member Posts: 569
    edited September 2012
    call flop

    snap call turn shove
  • Jac35Jac35 Member Posts: 6,491
    edited September 2012
    Hi
    We all play differently but i'm struggling to think of too many better spots when short stacked than this.
    You've raised, hit tptk and the bb has donked full pot!

    Brilliant! All in thank you very much.

    You're either going to have to fade a couple of draws or you're dominating his top pair so often that surely this is the easiest shove ever.

  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    call flop snap call turn shove
    Posted by huuuuume

    yeah I thought about this, guess oppo will shove turn with all worse 9's + bluffs if they donk like this


    FWIW -I shoved oppo shows 2 pr 64o gg nn wp sir !

    Kinda proves how easy it is to raise pre small and c bet verus these oppo's and mount chips )
    This time oppo got lucky meh - o I didn't improve :(


  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited September 2012
    Nothing wrong with the open.

    I give very little credit to these flop donk leads, if he's flopped better than you he's checking back. You have the best hand 90%+ of the time here, I push on the flop, he'll probably call with a draw or weaker made hand.

    Edit - just read the replies and saw the result, that's a useful read that goes in my notes for next time, his play isn't optimal, let's you get away from a lot of your opening range
  • Jac35Jac35 Member Posts: 6,491
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    Nothing wrong with the open. I give very little credit to these flop donk leads, if he's flopped better than you he's checking back. You have the best hand 90%+ of the time here, I push on the flop, he'll probably call with a draw or weaker made hand. Edit - just read the replies and saw the result, that's a useful read that goes in my notes for next time, his play isn't optimal, let's you get away from a lot of your opening range
    Posted by GaryQQQ
    Off topic obviously, so apologies to Rancid but found this interesting.
    To provide balance are we not ever leading these flops when we hit big as well as when we are drawing?
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot:
    In Response to Re: mini open - deepish - TPTK - donked into on flop for pot : Off topic obviously, so apologies to Rancid but found this interesting. To provide balance are we not ever leading these flops when we hit big as well as when we are drawing?
    Posted by Jac35
    Balancing your range is massively over-rated against most players. And if you do wanna balance your range, then don't donkbet when you miss, and don't donkbet when you hit :)

    Let the preflop raiser make a c-bet when you've hit, and when you haven't save the chips and fold. Alot of play in shallow stack MTTs near the end is very standard.
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