Calling Shoves Pre Readless (Cash Poker)

Lambert180

Hello,

This is more of a general question for cash poker and not specific to one hand...

What kind of ranges are we calling shoves with, when readless from shortstacks players? To give a bit more detail, I'm referring to the times when people are sat short stacked and are open shoving or shoving over someone's 3x fairly regularly, maybe not every hand but quite often and it is the only way they come into a pot.

To keep it simple, let's assume we're always closing the action, and when (if) we call, we will be the only one in the pot and will be racing v the shorty.

Obviously it depends on stack size, so can we have answers for 20BB and 40BB stacks (give or take a few BBs for each). As it is now, if I 3x and get jammed on, or someone just open jams and I'm last to act, my calling ranges are something along the lines of...

20BB - 88+, AT+

40BB - TT+ AQ+

Obviously these will change if I have notes but we're just talking readless for this one. I only ask because last night I opened 3x and got jammed on by a 40BB stack, it comes back round to me, last to act (and no-one else had called) and I call with AJs, he has A8s and I win a decent pot. I was swayed more towards the call because he had shoved pre in the previous 2 hands as well. I know I was right this time, but just wasn't sure if long-term that's gonna be a good call or not. I know my AJ call was looser than I said in my above ranges but as I say this was influenced by him shoving the 2 previous hands

Thoughts?

What do you think are good calling ranges in these spots v 20xBB and 40xBB stacks?

Paul

wartic

depends on if your playing the man or playing the cards the man holds. If you know he has a wide range fair enough but a stranger or someone you know to be generally tight could be running like god and might be better to wait for another hand/battle. What does Sun Tzu say?
Hence that general is skillful in attack whose opponent does not know what to defend; and he is skillful in defense whose opponent does not know what to attack.

gracie24

A good question. I was playing on of these a couple of days ago and folded A+ hands to his all ins until one other player called and the "All in" merchant held K3. Obviously the AQ man lost to a pair of 3's. Next time he did the same (next hand) he was called again and this time his Q7 did not hold up.

You just need to spot your local nutter - although like a blind dog they do sometimes did up a bone!

My preference is to keep it to a big pair as any two cards can beat an A+.

Lambert180

@ Wartic - I can't really play the man when it's just a question of calling his shove or not lol, all the play has gone out of the hand, and it's just a case of is my hand ahead of his range or not.

@ Gracie - I know any two cards can beat a big ace, but if I have AK, and they have 72, 89, JT, K4 whatever, I'd always call because I'm winning long term.

pr1nnyraid

Depends if you fancy a spin

Hand History #555921658 (09:34 24/08/2012)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceMOTHGIRL Small blind  £0.50 £0.50 £76.52 victorrezz Big blind  £1.00 £1.50 £46.50   Your hole cards 9 A       ??All-in  £126.91 £128.41 £0.00 kazan74 Fold     pr1nnyraid All-in  £249.44 £377.85 £0.00 MOTHGIRL Fold     victorrezz Fold     pr1nnyraid Unmatched bet  £122.53 £255.32 £122.53 ?? Show
   pr1nnyraid Show 9 A  

The_Don90

This is always going to be on the slughtly bingo side of things imo Paul, although these are the clever fish as i call them. They know you have an edge so they take that edge away. Not sure if you can assign a calling range as quite simply they can have 23o - AA. They shove knowing we will fold alot of the time. 

I probably prefer calling with pairs over AK because we have a pair and dont need to dodge on the times their gambling. However we still have to call our good Ax hands. 

Good question imo. But imho I don't think a range can be assigned alot of this for me is feel. 

Curt360x27

For 20bb i think 22+ - A10+ if we are open jammed on. However if we open to 3x-5x then we should be willing to call wider as we have already invested 3+BB into the pot. So hands like KQ,KJ,K10,QJ,Q10,J10s we can sometimes call off with. 

I think your range for calling a 40bb shove is fine. If we open though and get jammed on I probably lower the pairs that i'm calling with to 77+. TBH with an open jam i probs call with 77. 

I think a lot of it though is just how we feel at the time and although this is pretty bad, I generally think most of us call or fold on whether we fancy it or not. 

like pr1nnyraid said, depends if you fancy a spin innit! 

Pipunch

Calling either with 88+ will probably be profitable long term but higher variance.

Personally i wait for pairs or AK suited. And then still lose.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Calling Shoves Pre Readless (Cash Poker):

For 20bb i think 22+ - A10+ if we are open jammed on. However if we open to 3x-5x then we should be willing to call wider as we have already invested 3+BB into the pot. So hands like KQ,KJ,K10,QJ,Q10,J10s we can sometimes call off with.  I think your range for calling a 40bb shove is fine. If we open though and get jammed on I probably lower the pairs that i'm calling with to 77+. TBH with an open jam i probs call with 77.  I think a lot of it though is just how we feel at the time and although this is pretty bad, I generally think most of us call or fold on whether we fancy it or not.  like pr1nnyraid said, depends if you fancy a spin innit! 
Posted by Curt360x27

your range for 20BB seems very wide to me. 

profman15

Another question guys...
.do these ranges,whatever they may be, alter for cash and mtt's even deep stack as opposed to say BH? Just a thought as i certainly wouldn't be calling AI's in BH's with AJ without good reason. Just asking....

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Calling Shoves Pre Readless (Cash Poker):

Another question guys... .do these ranges,whatever they may be, alter for cash and mtt's even deep stack as opposed to say BH? Just a thought as i certainly wouldn't be calling AI's in BH's with AJ without good reason. Just asking....
Posted by profman15

They are definitely altered in MTTs because in cash when you can reload, you can always take every single +EV spot no matter how marginal, if you are bankrolled for your level.

In an MTT, you are always looking to take +EV spots, but there will be times when something is +EV but not +£EV, meaning that specific hand is a +EV play, but doing it might reduce the actual cash amount you cash for in the long term.

For instance, if there were 5 people left and the payjumps were very steep, your 2nd in chips and 1st in chips goes all in and you know (somehow) 100% that he has KQs. You have 88 so it's a +EV call to make BUT...

If he has 100xBB, you have 90xBB, and the other 3 players have 10xBB, the hand is +EV but doing it in an MTT in that spot isn't +£EV because of how much you'll lose in cash terms the nearly 50% of the time, when you could easily get down to HU first and gurantee alot more cash.

rancid

just go on feel tbh
depends if oppo open shoves, 3 bet shoves etc...
no black or white answer
would say if you call once and you get an answer make a note and it becomes a lot easier next time
if your readless, it's very simple they either weak or strong - u decide - just call make note - move on till next time because there's always a next time
not like you going to get pro short stackers at nl4