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Two perplexing hands....

profman15profman15 Member Posts: 1,808
edited September 2012 in The Poker Clinic
Hi Guys
Two problems for your consideration:
a) This happened first hand in DTD. Can't get hand off SKY for some reason but i'll try to explain. UTG min raise, i reraise 3x the raise in CO. villain calls in bb. UTG folds. I have QQ. Flop is 88x rainbow. Villain check raises quickly. I check. The Turn is 8 and villain raises all-in VERY quickly. Should i have called?
I folded as it was so early in T but lost about 1k.
The speed of his play was off-putting TBH. Looking back , i shouldn't have been worrying about KK+ as he should ReR my 3-bet. Possibly early could he call in bb with say, 98s or 87s or pp as it is early? Possibly IMO. Should i RER more than 3x the min raise? Unfortunately the speed uggested the 8 to me not pp. Looking back i think call was the play, i think.

b) A similar type of hand but later in a DTD T.
Please pick out 'mistakes' that you think i've made in my play.(possibly as early then 3bet bigger?)

Saw some non-standard plays imo last night which hurt me last night. My AA 5 bet all-in called by KQo with lots of chips both sides catching QQK xx was particularly hurtful but that's poker. That's why i'm unsure that what i feel should happen really has so ,for instance, in the hand above he really had AA or KK and not bothered to RER so he could trap but then later betting says no. Just first hand jitters by me probably....AND Newcastle equalise in 90th min...sigh!!!

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceWAREZSmall blind 50.0050.004605.00VespaPXBig blind 100.00150.004900.00 Your hole cardsKK
Call 100.00250.003052.50profman15Raise 300.00550.004142.50GEO68Fold    Yorkie74
Call 200.00750.002852.50Flop  QQJ



Return 750.000.003602.50
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Comments

  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    I probably make it like 350/400 pre but that's nitpicking a bit. Sigh at the pot donk bet, and his stack size says he's never folding. If he's a semi-competent player from what you've seen then I'd probably just stick him all in on the flop. Seems like he would be massively losing value by betting full pot with a Q when he could just check to the pre-flop raiser (you) who would probably c-bet. So I'd leave towards him having Jx, a strong draw like ATcc or a PP under jacks.

    I'd stick him in now.
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    wtf. why u folding to a pot size donk bet on a paired board w/ kk??????????????????????????
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited September 2012
    I think he has Jx loads when he makes that bet.

    So many donk bets on sky now.

    Dunno if calling is better than shoving or not, but that's what I'd do.

    Both above options are better than folding though, imo. 
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  • pr1nnyraidpr1nnyraid Member Posts: 495
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Two perplexing hands....:
    Hi Guys .....
     Looking back , i shouldn't have been worrying about KK+ as he should ReR my 3-bet. Possibly early could he call in bb with say, 98s or 87s or pp as it is early? Possibly IMO. 
    Posted by profman15
    People cold call 3bets first hand with AA & KK too, there is no rule of thumb of how to play KK-AA pre flop that you can then stack off based upon. Rethink.
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  • profman15profman15 Member Posts: 1,808
    edited September 2012
    Cheers guys

    I take it you didn't see the first hand then......

    Yes i agree pr1...  there's no set way to play KK+ and that's what was worrying. With no HUD(not that i've ever used one) or judgement of a players play etc i feel unsure.
    One point, i would make is that its not cash and playing for a team, i did feel 'obliged' to NOT take the risk so early. Does that seem soft?
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    Profman, the best thing you can do for the team is to go deep or win it, and the best way to do that is by taking spots like this where you're very likely to be good. You can't just ladder your way up for the team, go for the win.
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  • profman15profman15 Member Posts: 1,808
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Two perplexing hands....:
    Profman, the best thing you can do for the team is to go deep or win it, and the best way to do that is by taking spots like this where you're very likely to be good. You can't just ladder your way up for the team, go for the win.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Fair enough...my comment was a bit tongue in cheek mate. I was really just flummoxed as to whether it was obvious as to if it was a call or fold.
    Still managed to score for the team last night by doing ok in the other two T's(this one went south later with my 5 bet AI pre w/ AA being called by KQo with two equal stakes. QQKxx board was enough. So maybe this is an eg of people making non standard plays as i certainly expected QQ+ for that line of betting.)
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    Sorry Profman, hope you didn't think I meant my last comment in a harsh way, I always say the same to Emma when she's trying to ladder for the team. Make money for yourself and do well for the team by winning it :p

    But anyway... I think the thing to think about here is 'what does he want his bet to acheive?'. Is he really donk betting full pot with trip queens when you're gonna fold to that bet probably 90% of the time (even when you have KK!). He's gonna want to gently relieve you of your stack if he's smacked this flop, either by just check/calling or betting small. The fact he's bet like this suggests he doesn't want a call IMO.
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2012
    qq hand bet flop, snap call turn

    Kk hand I flat flop and usually call down





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  • profman15profman15 Member Posts: 1,808
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Two perplexing hands....:
    Sorry Profman, hope you didn't think I meant my last comment in a harsh way, I always say the same to Emma when she's trying to ladder for the team. Make money for yourself and do well for the team by winning it :p But anyway... I think the thing to think about here is 'what does he want his bet to acheive?'. Is he really donk betting full pot with trip queens when you're gonna fold to that bet probably 90% of the time (even when you have KK!). He's gonna want to gently relieve you of your stack if he's smacked this flop, either by just check/calling or betting small. The fact he's bet like this suggests he doesn't want a call IMO.
    Posted by Lambert180[/QUOTE

    Hi L
    No offence taken at all m8. I just don't seem to allow the logic in my head at times as players don't always follow the best play. He's since told me he had Ako so yes it was a snap call. His speed just conjured up an 8 in my head. Pocket pairs or Ak is still there isn't it but i'm learning so in future i may get nearer to that win. 
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  • BigMikeDBCBigMikeDBC Member Posts: 93
    edited September 2012

    Don't think I could fold kings myself!

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  • profman15profman15 Member Posts: 1,808
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Two perplexing hands....:
    wtf. why u folding to a pot size donk bet on a paired board w/ kk??????????????????????????
    Posted by percival09
    Ok Percival
     I realise i haven't the experience you have but no need for "wtf"mate, You are correct in retrospect as pocket pairs would have done that maybe and actually he had AKo so yes i should have called, We learn by our mistakes. Actually your post made me chuckle as it appears that something seemingly automatic caused me to be so unsure. I've a long way to go fella but i know that believe me and i have improved my play since starting last year. Any suggestions Percival?

    PS i was looking at the first hand P. Is that as bad as the second one then?
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    lol sorry I just say 'wtf' all the time. Of course not intended to be offensive. I don't have much experience - when I wrote that comment it was in a jokey sense and if you knew how I talk and go about things you'd probably lol yourself haha. No, youre a good player man - you post some good hands. I'll look at the first hand now. 
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  • PipunchPipunch Member Posts: 516
    edited September 2012
    lol
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    I think hand 1 is also an easy call. People overplay their hands so much at micro mtts and could easily have something you dominate. They probably wouldnt put you on a range and just look at their cards and notice they have a fh or something. So yeah I call in both.
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  • profman15profman15 Member Posts: 1,808
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Two perplexing hands....:
    lol
    Posted by Pipunch
    My ,my pipunch this really was an erudite and detailed analysis of two hands ..............mmmmmm? Nice one
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  • profman15profman15 Member Posts: 1,808
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Two perplexing hands....:
    I think hand 1 is also an easy call. People overplay their hands so much at micro mtts and could easily have something you dominate. They probably wouldnt put you on a range and just look at their cards and notice they have a fh or something. So yeah I call in both.
    Posted by percival09

    Cheers P

    You know i wish i could put emoticons to show that i was being tongue in cheek too...scouse sarcastic humour doesn't translate well to the written page, i guess.(yes, before you say "what humour?" Haha)
    I appreciate your advice and can see that you are an experienced player. Keep posting m8....
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    ha yeah. It's hard to interpret written communication sometimes. 
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  • gillyboygillyboy Member Posts: 5
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: Two perplexing hands....:
    ha yeah. It's hard to interpret written communication sometimes. 
    Posted by percival09
    Haha I'm a everton myself we were robbed, the linesman was blind, and you must have been looking at the football and not your cards not to go all in and call mate!!! 

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