Rules Question: String Bet

Padzz77

Hi

This query discusses this week's episode of Premier League V so if you have Sky plussed it and dont want to know what happened, then look away now.

Jungleman is short stacked.  He has 99.  He starts to move his chips in.  It is obvious he is going all in, because nobody would have raised less than all in with his stack.  However, it is (correctly) ruled a string bet.  So instead of being all in for (say) 500K (can't remeber exact amount), he is ruled to have raised to (say) 375K meaning he has 125K of chips left back.

Before it is ruled to be a string bet, Antonius (the huge chip leader) has announced "call".  He said he thought that it was an all-in bet.  Jungleman confirms that he did intend it as an all-in bet.

However, as mentioned, the ruling (quite correctly) was that he had made a string bet.

So my question is, one the ruling had been made, couldnt Antonius have simply raised himself, meaning that Jungleman could either fold or (as he orignally intended) go all in.

Was it against the rules for Antonius to raise?

Would it have been bad etiquette?

Antonius had not turned his hand over, but he showed he had a strong hand by asking for a ruling that the hand was all-in.  As it turned out, he had AK.

The flop was very bad for 99, and included an Ace.  So when Antonius did bet the flop, Jungleman simply folded.  Antonius continued to complain about (a) the floor's ruling and (b) the dealer (who he wrongly blamed for the incident).  

But wasnt it just his own fault for not 3 betting (&/or for not slow playing after the flop).

Slykllist

Before it is ruled to be a string bet, Antonius (the huge chip leader) has announced "call".

I think this is the key bit!  If Antonius has announced call, then he cannot change this to a raise.

AcidMan27

Pretty sure because he had already announced call that's all he could do.

They should have done what Jesse said and agreed to go all in no matter what on the flop.

reddevjoe

 I saw this aswell. Antonius couldn't have raised because he already annouced to the table 'call' which, in turn meant that they were going to see a flop. So yes, Antonius wasn't able to raise. (In a cash game, however, the players might have agreed to go all in on the flop before actually seeing it to get rid of the original mistake).
 
 It was both their faults in a way because Jungle did stringbet but Atononius basically got too excited and called too quickly.

 Personally, I think that Jungle is done with the hand once the Ace comes down because everything that snap calls pre is now beating him basically.

Hope this helps.  

Padzz77

OK, thanks for all the replies.

Consensus seems to be that the announcement of "call" stands regardless of the fact that the actual size of the bet required a ruling.

Would this be the case even if Antonius had waited a second longer until Jungleman had actually completed his chip movements.

ie in this particular case, Antonius was so quick that Jungleman hadnt made his second chip movement (even though he was intending to, as he admitted himself).

But what if:

i) all the chips get into the middle

ii) then the "call" declaration is made

iii) then the string bet ruling is made

iv) meaning that some chips then have to be moved back, despite having been there when the "call" was made?

Would that make a difference?  Would the second player get the option to re-raise in that scenario?

And is the moral of the story that the big stack should always announce "allin" rather than "call" in this scenario?

TheMarkOfJ

As said above Antonius can't raise once he's verbally announced call, & I don't think it's the dealers fault. You just count out the stack a player puts in and announce the bet.

My main issue with the incident was that throughout the Premier League so far there's been a massive amount of string betting (I watch for these things constantly, I'm a dealer!), and suddenly the tournament director gets strict on this occasion. Go back through previous episodes and watch Ben Wilinofsky - I think nearly every bet he makes is ''stringy'' which should make them minimum bets every time, but it seems like the rules aren't strictly applied to a set of the highest name pro's. That or their dealers are sh * t!

The solution should have been that the tournament director hears what went on and applies the same lenience with regard to string betting that everyone else has enjoyed, and just rules that Jungle is all-in.

It's also weird to see Jungleman, one of THE best players in the world making such a simple live mistake (not just announcing all in)- he needs a word with Tikay to help him out.

Thats my two penneth worth - interesting topic!

Padzz77

In Response to Re: Rules Question: String Bet:

As said above Antonius can't raise once he's verbally announced call, & I don't think it's the dealers fault. 
Posted by TheMarkOfJ

Definitely not the dealer's fault.

Antonius described the incident incorrectly to the floor manager.  He said that the dealer grabbed the chips while Jungleman was still in the process of putting them in.  The replays showed that that simply did not happen at all.  The dealer didnt touch the chips before Antonius called.

In Response to Re: Rules Question: String Bet:

... suddenly the tournament director gets strict on this occasion. ... but it seems like the rules aren't strictly applied to a set of the highest name pro's. Posted by TheMarkOfJ

Isnt it up to either the dealer or another player to call it though?  On this occasion, I dont think the director intervened of his own intiative.  Selbst called it (as a joke according to the commentators).

I think everyone would agree that this definitely was a string bet.  I've seen much more marginal decisions than that applied (eg a player using 2 hands, but one hand moving before the other).

As for Wilinofsky, you may well be right.  The only thing I would say is that sometimes the players' speech is drowned out by the commentators, and so some of the time he might have announced the size of his bet.

 

RogueCell

*WHOOSH*

FlyingDagg

"WHOOSH" too