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8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?

Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
edited September 2012 in The Poker Clinic
The shove on the river is almost certain to be a flush at the very least, but is this a river that's fine to bet/fold?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
lordgee12 Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £7.88
knight0101 Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £13.77
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • A
     
skyjocker Fold     
LUKEDENO23 Fold     
Lambert180 Raise  £0.24 £0.36 £8.35
mdawg Call  £0.24 £0.60 £10.92
lordgee12 Fold     
knight0101 Call  £0.16 £0.76 £13.61
Flop
   
  • 10
  • 3
  • 3
     
knight0101 Check     
Lambert180 Bet  £0.39 £1.15 £7.96
mdawg Call  £0.39 £1.54 £10.53
knight0101 Fold     
Turn
   
  • A
     
Lambert180 Bet  £1.00 £2.54 £6.96
mdawg Call  £1.00 £3.54 £9.53
River
   
  • 7
     
Lambert180 Bet  £1.84 £5.38 £5.12
mdawg Raise  £9.06 £14.44 £0.47
Lambert180 Fold     
mdawg Muck     
mdawg Win  £6.67  £7.14
mdawg Return  £7.22 £0.55 £14.36

Comments

  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited September 2012
    Don't mind bet-folding, though the bet is a bit small to be convincing as a big hand. I don't know if your opponent is goin to notice that sort of thing but...

    I will pick you up on your flop bet sizing. You know I don't have a problem with half-pot but in other threads I've seen you betting bigger on other boards. You haven't started betting half-pot when you've missed and more when you've got it, have you?
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?:
    Don't mind bet-folding, though the bet is a bit small to be convincing as a big hand. I don't know if your opponent is goin to notice that sort of thing but... I will pick you up on your flop bet sizing. You know I don't have a problem with half-pot but in other threads I've seen you betting bigger on other boards. You haven't started betting half-pot when you've missed and more when you've got it, have you?
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Nah definitely not, but I have started changing my flop sizing on different flops which I never really used to do... so this maybe the completely wrong thing to do, so please tell me if it is lol.

    On say K26r, I'd bet smaller than normal as my c-bets, to give myself the chance to get called wider when I have the K, and when I don't have it, it's a much cheaper attempt at the pot, because a lot of people will be folding this flop if they haven't got Kx whether I bet 40% or 80% pot.

    So, generally speaking, I'm c-betting bigger on wet flops and smaller on dry flops, whether I have it or not (assuming I'm c-betting because I don't 100% obv)
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited September 2012
    I think the problem with it is that you don't know how your opponents are perceiving it.

    They can think you're betting bigger on wet flops and smaller on dry flops. They can think you're betting bigger when you have it and smaller when you don't. They can think you're betting bigger with your bluffs and smaller with your draws, etc. etc... You've got to keep track of what they've seen you do and even then you don't really know if they're keeping track or if they perceive it the way you think.

    I don't vary my c-bets very much because I don't want to make my opponents unpredictable. I want them to know roughly what bet-size to expect but not know what to expect of my holdings. I don't want them making unpredictable extrapolations from my bet size, so c-bet roughly the same with everything.

    I wouldn't change the size of my c-bets based on the texture of the flop, though I might do so dependent on my position, the number of players in the hand, stack to pot ratio, etc.
  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited September 2012
    agree with cbetting smaller on dry flops, i'd b/f river as well
  • Curt360x27Curt360x27 Member Posts: 490
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?:
    Don't mind bet-folding, though the bet is a bit small to be convincing as a big hand. I don't know if your opponent is goin to notice that sort of thing but... I will pick you up on your flop bet sizing. You know I don't have a problem with half-pot but in other threads I've seen you betting bigger on other boards. You haven't started betting half-pot when you've missed and more when you've got it, have you?
    Posted by BorinLoner

    I think this would be fine against the vast majority of players at this level.

  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?:
    Don't mind bet-folding, though the bet is a bit small to be convincing as a big hand. I don't know if your opponent is goin to notice that sort of thing but... I will pick you up on your flop bet sizing. You know I don't have a problem with half-pot but in other threads I've seen you betting bigger on other boards. You haven't started betting half-pot when you've missed and more when you've got it, have you?
    Posted by BorinLoner
    he does it in nearly every hand he posts here as far as I can see. I agree with curt though
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?:
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River? : he does it in nearly every hand he posts here as far as I can see. I agree with curt though
    Posted by grantorino
    I don't think that's fair GT lol. You made me doubt myself and think you were right, but just looking at some of the hands I've posted today that's not the case. I'll bet smaller on flops like Q24 even if I have KK, I'm not just going massive when I have it and not when I don't, I'm just trying adjusting my bet sizes for dry flops.

    Don't get me wrong though, I think bet sizing is probably one of biggest leaks in my game easily, and will always take your advice on board.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?:
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River? : I don't think that's fair GT lol. You made me doubt myself and think you were right, but just looking at some of the hands I've posted today that's not the case. I'll bet smaller on flops like Q24 even if I have KK, I'm not just going massive when I have it and not when I don't, I'm just trying adjusting my bet sizes for dry flops. Don't get me wrong though, I think bet sizing is probably one of biggest leaks in my game easily, and will always take your advice on board.
    Posted by Lambert180
    I havent kept a record or anything, but you seem to bet bigger when you have a good hand and smaller when bluffing or a bad card comes. Nearly everyone who beats 4NL, 8NL seems to do this so Im not saying its bad. There may be an element of selective memory about my observation, I could be wrong, and if I was right you may have changed it lately. The fact you are thinking about it is a good start imo,.if your sizing is a leak I doubt its getting exploited, I would think you are doing the ezploiting if anything
  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?:
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River? : I havent kept a record or anything, but you seem to bet bigger when you have a good hand and smaller when bluffing or a bad card comes. Nearly everyone who beats 4NL, 8NL seems to do this so Im not saying its bad. There may be an element of selective memory about my observation, I could be wrong, and if I was right you may have changed it lately. The fact you are thinking about it is a good start imo,.if your sizing is a leak I doubt its getting exploited, I would think you are doing the ezploiting if anything
    Posted by grantorino


    this is good exploitative play tho!
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2012
    they don't notice at nl4 - it doesn't matter
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited September 2012
    I've noticed it too Lamborinio. Probs ok at 8nl tho/all skys cash games
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2012
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River?:
    In Response to Re: 8NL - Standard Bet/Fold on River? : this is good exploitative play tho!
    Posted by beaneh
    Agreed is that not what I said?
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