have i done it wrong two days running......

Unknown

Hey guys
Ready for another whipping after yesterday's hand but this is closer i feel. Been playing four handed for a while and IDCU has shown me a pot winning bluff earlier repping an ace on the board. Two other players seem to be fairly passive so IDCU is trying to bully a bit to gain chips.
What do you think? Should i have checked turn to see outcome then i may just be second pr and play cautiously or was the all-in with probably 12 outs ok. Has the fact that he has top pr forced him to call after all i could have two pair?


PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceWoogie8688Small blind 400.00400.0010818.15IDONKCALLUBig blind 800.001200.0019003.48 Your hole cards109   deuceman2Fold    profman15Raise 1600.002800.0014069.93Woogie8688Fold    IDONKCALLUCall 800.003600.0018203.48Flop  K36   IDONKCALLUCheck    profman15Bet 1800.005400.0012269.93IDONKCALLUCall 1800.007200.0016403.48Turn  9   IDONKCALLUCheck    profman15All-in 12269.9319469.930.00IDONKCALLUCall 12269.9331739.864133.55IDONKCALLUShow10K   profman15Show109   River  6   IDONKCALLUWinTwo Pairs, Kings and 6s31739.86 35873.41

Lambert180

To be honest, I don't think Donk should have called (as I said in his thread before even seeing this thread) as there should be little he's beating.

I probably take the free card on the turn, now we have showdown value and so many outs to hands that will almost certainly be the winner. If you do bet, I think shoving is ok because any meaningful bet is gonna leave your stack being really small in comparison to the pot and small in terms of number of BBs, although betting smaller probably looks stronger.

HITMAN_RV

hmmmm!!   Many people could analyse it lots different ways..

I understand the aggression with which you played..... BUT....

My reading/critique would be,

   Firstly,  your Min pre does not really ask any question, a player may call that with virtually any 2 cards, I know it seems the fashion, but I prefer a raise to 2000 2200, 2400, for better definition, or even just shove as I doubt he calls without something tasty, even then you still be defo live 95% of time with a nice 98s!!

Your probe continuation of half pot, fair enuf, .....his call, says to me either he Hit BIG on flop, or he on same draw as you...

Turn..... You hit 9, but no real need to think You now massive & in front, as we thought he hit BIG [either K or 2pr, set} or same flush draw!!

....so because of this, unless I got a HIGH club in ma hand, I am not betting HARD just on the turn 9 or poor club flush draw, Maybe just check to see, as I might expect him to 'check raise' a similar probe, but you both getting pretty commited if you continue small & he calls so pot control I would follow!!

.....if you have not shoved turn.  with 6 on River, am pretty sure i may have gone behind to any poss holding so check again to try to get to showdown cheapish!!! Pot contol may be for girls[lol],  but here i feel,  it is correct, even tho you have position!!

I actually like his play by not betting to protect from flush, he has disguised his Top Pr well!!

...but then Again, I'm just a lil, HitDonk!!

BorinLoner

Profman, I will come out of retirement for this hand only because I want to ask you; What were you trying to make IDCU think you had when you shoved the turn? What were you representing?

If you had a set, would you shove the turn or bet smaller?
If you had two-pair, would you shove the turn or bet smaller?
If you had AK, would you shove the turn or bet smaller?

I suspect the answer to all of those questions is that you would bet smaller, so when you shove you are basically only ever going to hold a bluff. IDCU is good enough to see that.

I don't like betting the turn here because you can't get hands that beat yours to fold. If you had missed the turn, I wouldn't mind betting becase you can put the pressure on IDCU to fold hands like 22, 44, 55, 77, 88, 99, or 3x, 6x, Ax or drawing hands that he may be holding (Though IDCU would probably semi-bluff the flop with a flush draw). Having picked up a pair, we now have a hand of some value and don't need to bluff anymore. Any value bet probably doesn't get called by worse and bluffs don't fold out better. So I'd check back the turn.

If you're going to continue betting on the turn, then make it an amount that's believable for a range of strong hands like sets. As I say I don't think it's at all wise to bet but if you're going to do it, make it look like a value bet...

HITMAN_RV, I'd just like to talk about:
"Firstly, your Min pre does not really ask any question, a player may call that with virtually any 2 cards, I know it seems the fashion, but I prefer a raise to 2000 2200, 2400, for better definition, or even just shove as I doubt he calls without something tasty, even then you still be defo live 95% of time with a nice 98s!!"

If our opponents are going to call a min-raise from the blinds with any two cards, that's really good for us. It means that we play in position, with the betting lead against a player whose hand-range is weak. In the long term that's going to be very good news for us. Even if occasionally they hit their weird two-pair or trips, 2/3 times they don't even hit a pair. Weak players, calling out of the blinds with weak hands is always going to be good news.

Good players will 3-bet us more often from the blinds, though. This is another reason to min-raise, as it's less costly for us than a 3x raise on the occasions that we're forced to fold. These good players are also familiar with the difficulties of playing a pot out of position with a weak hand, so will fold to a min-raise just as often as they will to a 3x raise.

Shoving 20BB is a little too much, to my mind. We're not going to be called very often but when we are it's unlikely to ever be hands that we beat - so we're hoping for underpairs - and it's going to make it trickier for us to get value from our big hands if we shove here. We look so suspicious if we shove our button with a wide range of weakish hands like 9T but suddenly want to raise small with AA or KK.

profman15

Cheers Hitman and Borin

I really appreciate your input and feel that i'm starting to see much more clearly now. Yes there are different ways of looking at things but as long as its logical and there's a plan behind it then both can have merit imo.
Thanks for cming out of retirement B. I enjoy your posts as the arguments are so well put. What was  trying to show by betting? Well, tbh, it was my poor attempt at meta game. IDCU had bluffed me w/ Q3 o earlier when an ace showed on river. He showed. A few hands later i was trying the "he knows that i know that he showed the bluff earlier so i'll semi-bluff with it (i may have been ahead but still had outs) and he may think aaaah he's trying to con me...he does have it!!!! I'll fold." asi had with 88 v Q3o. This may seem soft but the weak all-in was meant to show strength.TBH without the top pr he'd have to fold.
It may seem a bit jumbled but i'm just learning and certainly wasn't a play i'd have made 6 months ago. Bet-sizing and the meta game affeting play are certainly areas where i need to improve, i know. I see the comments and say "yes iunderstand now" but in the midst of the game i have these 'mad/bad' plans. AAAh well onward and upward(hopefully) eh?

grantorino

Check back turn imo. 

rancid

check back turn, never getting called by worse, oppo not folding better - you have showdown + draw

profman15

CHEERS G AND R....I MUST ADMIT THAT CHECKING BACK TURN SEEMS TO BE THE RIGHT PLAY HERE AND I'M SORRY I NEVER DID IT. TY.