This call is prob too loose. What is the min requirement to call in this spot?

Padzz77

This is from a timed tourney, and (in my opinion) that means that there is a need to take some risks that might not be appropriate in other formats.

Even so, should I have folded here?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Bedsox	Small blind		50.00	50.00	1500.00
nana100606	Big blind		100.00	150.00	4200.00
	Your hole cards	J J
kieranpa13	Raise		200.00	350.00	6175.00
Padzz77	Raise		400.00	750.00	3400.00
Bella_lasa	Fold
Bedsox	All-in		1500.00	2250.00	0.00
nana100606	Fold
kieranpa13	All-in		6175.00	8425.00	0.00
Padzz77	All-in		3400.00	11825.00	0.00
kieranpa13	Unmatched bet		2575.00	9250.00	2575.00

Lambert180

Edit all that... first guy min-raises, then re-jams, don't like that at all, it's unlikely he ever has a weak hand here. with 30 odd BB I just fold.

Padzz77

In Response to a:

Edit all that... first guy min-raises, then re-jams, don't like that at all, it's unlikely he ever has a weak hand here. with 30 odd BB I just fold.
Posted by Lambert180

Yeah, I do think it was a fold, because if I lose I am out.  

However, I am not certain the UTG guy has to be strong. Couldnt he be doing it to isolate with (say) AT, A9, AJ?  Maybe even worse?

I probably should have just shoved myself in the timed tourney format.   I chose not to due to the table dynamic, but having made that choice I should have (reluctantly) folded I think.

Lambert180

I think the problem him possibly isolating though is that he's min-raised pre, and you've min 3bet him, so basically you are NEVER doing this with a weak hand. I very much doubt you would ever min 3bet with AJ, KQ, 88, even AQ, so I'd say he KNOWS you have a good hand and yet is still happy to put his stack in knowing you're gonna call.

CUFCrp90

Interesting hand!

The first shover seems a standard squeeze/shortstack shove, but the UTG raiser looks like he has minraise/shoved very deliberately, I have to agree with Lambert that he is strong; he has AK minimum, AA KK QQ in my opinion. Seems a good way to play a monster out of position.

Don't buy the argument that he's isolating, if he was going to play ace-rag out of position he'd limp in.

Padzz77

In Response to Re: This call is prob too loose. What is the min requirement to call in this spot?:

Interesting hand! The first shover seems a standard squeeze/shortstack shove, but the UTG raiser looks like he has minraise/shoved very deliberately, I have to agree with Lambert that he is strong; he has AK minimum, AA KK QQ in my opinion. Seems a good way to play a monster out of position. Don't buy the argument that he's isolating, if he was going to play ace-rag out of position he'd limp in.
Posted by CUFCrp90

Yeah, I agree with both of you.  I wasnt expecting him to be weak, and I should have folded. But I put him on 2 overcards or QQ, because I would have expected a flat call with AA or KK.  I dont necessarily think he did expect me to call, and I think he just saw my 400 as dead money increasing his pot odds, but I could be wrong.

What is the minimum I should have to call in this spot?  I would have folded TT and worse and wouldnt have raised with those hands) but would have been happy to call with QQ.  Is that still too loose?

As it happens, small stack had a lower pair than me, and didnt improve.  UTG had AK and hit one on turn and the other on river, so  QQ wouldnt have worked out any better.  But I think JJ could be put down, and QQ probably has to take its chances.  

CUFCrp90

For me its not a case of "a minumum call" eg JJ fold, QQ call.

I like to work out the opponents range, as I said earlier his was fairly tight at AK AA KK or QQ. As his range is that tight you can arguably fold QQ there as youre not ahead of a lot of his range, and you're only racing against the AK.

In other spots though where the opponent has a slightly wider range including KQ A-Picture suited, JJ, TT, 99, 88, etc etc, I just work out how many of his hands my hand will beat.

Padzz77

In Response to Re: This call is prob too loose. What is the min requirement to call in this spot?:

For me its not a case of "a minumum call" eg JJ fold, QQ call. I like to work out the opponents range, as I said earlier his was fairly tight at AK AA KK or QQ. As his range is that tight you can arguably fold QQ there as youre not ahead of a lot of his range, and you're only racing against the AK. In other spots though where the opponent has a slightly wider range including KQ A-Picture suited, JJ, TT, 99, 88, etc etc, I just work out how many of his hands my hand will beat.
Posted by CUFCrp90

Thanks.

I dont expect him to have KQ, but it's not great for me if he does.  I can easily see him having 88+, A9s+, AJo+.  

I also think AA and KK are unlikely.

I would not be surprised to see Aces with worse kickers, especially when suited.

I think (or I did at time) that he expects me to fold and wants me to fold.

The way I see it (perhaps wrongly) is that with my chip stack, JJ just isnt strong enough to go into a 3 way all in, and I should have played the hand differently from start to finish.

As it happens, as the cards were dealt, nothing other than a fold would have saved me, because I think the big stack is calling if I move all-in.  But I still need to think some more about what I will do next time.  This is not an uncommon spot in a timed tourney (which is why I am saying I think UTG has a wider range than just the most premium hands).  I'm not really sure how to quickly work out the best option.  But I dont think I will risk my entire stack with JJ next time.  

profman15

HI P

If you believe that risks need to be taken in timed T's then this is a god hand totake one with. It should be a flip at best..keepyour fingers crossed....

Padzz77

In Response to Re: This call is prob too loose. What is the min requirement to call in this spot?:

HI P If you believe that risks need to be taken in timed T's then this is a god hand totake one with. It should be a flip at best..keepyour fingers crossed....
Posted by profman15

Yeah, I closed my eyes and crossed my fingers, but for some reason that didnt work

I aint 100% sure how to do the maths with all the time in the world, and even less sure how to do it in 15 seconds

As I see it, if I would be risking 3400 to win 5850 (plus I would get my 3400 back).  So I am getting odds of about 1.72:1.

If I am against 2 underpairs, I am actually gonna win 2 times out of 3, so obviously the odds are wonderful.

Against 1 underpair, and Ace with a kicker which is no higher than J, I am still winning more than half the time (a bit less than 3 in 5), and so odds are obviously still brilliant.  

Against AQ and AK (or if I give them each a range of 2 unpaired cards higher than J), I still win very slightly more or less 50%.  Still OK.

Against 1 underpair, and Ace with a kicker which is higher than J, my equity (according to Pokerstove) is around 45%. This is were my maths knowledge runs out.  Is it the case that 55:45 = 1.2:1, and that therefore the pot odds of 1.72:1 were good enough?

Against an overpair (and it doesnt make much difference if it is one or two), I am less than 20%.  Around 18% or 16% respectively.  So obviously the pot odds are nowhere near adequate.

Mmm.  So I think it is a close one.  On balance, the risk of going out completely probably means that the call was unjustified.  However, based on my opinion that the UTG probably did not have a big pair, then mathematically it was probably just about acceptable.  Either way, my biggest error in the hand was not the call itself, it was my original bet.  I should have sized that differently.

rancid

oppo has AK at worse -

fold it's a timed