Hoisted by my own petard with non-standard play BUT.....!!!!

profman15

Hi guys,
 Tried paste but grrrrr again....However if i don't make the effort and YOU don't then i'll not improve so /> />>>>


Blinds are 30/60 in the DTD and we're at a tage where people are going with suited connectors to hit big etc. Table has some well known players on of whch he is one so i'm looking for a nsp(non standard play). Consequently when it comes to button and there's a raise 3x then i decide to flat. bb folds.

I have Ace spades, King diamonds. I have 5k, btn has 4k

flop comes 4spades, 3 spades, Ace diamonds
Nice i think...he may have draw or hopefully A8+ and would expect rer from me with AJ+..

I bet half pot from sb and he calls.
Ace clubs is the turn.

I bet half pot and he calls.

Aaaah i'm thinking....could he have a stronger hand which is beating me but what could he have thats losing to me. Button beat could be any two cards in Gus's words  .....I'm being beaten by A3, A4, 33,44. Surely that's a narrow range but he shouldn't be calling with draw for half pots should he? Pot odds or is he going to use "implied odds"

Flop comes 7 diamonds.I bet half pot and he overbets all-in. Is this weak to bluff i ask myself? Does he have AQ say and feel well ahead with no flush on board. A£ and !$ is possible but i've seen a couple of bluff AI's early in the DTD for some reason and know that he couldn't put me on AK as i didn't rereaise.

I call and he shows 56 offsuit. I kick myself but on reflection i have a couple of Q's for you.

1. He didn't have the pot odds to call flop and turn bets did he with 8 outs?
2. A rer pre would have pushed him off the pot and saved me the hassle, yes?
3. At his all-in stage should i have folded ?
4. Should i have expected this play from 56 o? Because i certainly didn't! And the player has spent 25% of his stack fishing for the 7 before he hitsit on the river. Is this a play i should allow for  because when it hits on river should i be checking and then losing value on the future........


R

DOHHHHHHH

Why did you decide to flat pre prof? And having done that, why did you decide to lead in to the pre flop raiser on the perfect board for us?

To answer your questions....

1) Yes, this is an extremely easy flop call for him with 8 outs, position, and the likelihood that you have something you don't want to fold. (probably an ace).

Turn I dunno, would have to see stacks it's prob a maths problem and there's a yes or no answer. Sounds like an easy turn fold for him now. 1 donk lead could be anything, when you donk the turn too, you're pretty strong. 

2) We don't re-raise AK pre flop to take him off the pot. Your pre flop options are call or 3b. The best option is almost almost to 3b here, I'd need some really strong info on the opponent to put me off 3betting. If we do 3b, it's not to 'get him off the hand' it's because he could either call, or 4bet with a worse hand than AK. In DTD, I'd say theres a very high chance of him calling with worse, so it's an auto 3b for value.

3) Should he fold 56 if you 3b pre? probably. depends if he thinks he can outplay you post flop. DW about his play though. 

4) Should you put 56 in his range on the river? Yes, he could have this hand. It's more likely he has an ace, or a pocket pair or a missed flush draw or something though. I'd be going broke here too as played.

profman15

Cheers D

Lovely succinct and informative post m8. Donk bet on flop was because i  knew with AK he'd expect me to have raised. He may feel he's ahead with A8+ and keep going and if its a draw then make him pay. Early on players pay for draws a lot i find and i want value for TPTK.
Half pot bets for his OESD don't give him pot odds for the call but he'll say "I had implied odds" and who am i to argue. Looking at the range he could play and what could be beating me, i was well ahead when that other ace came. Yep, slightly perturbed he called turn bet but as A3, A4 was a killer but my nsp was in the forefront of my mind. If i repeated..."yea, he's got AJ or something and thinks he's still ahead" enough times then it comes true....right?
Big over raise on river? Well, does it mean he has it or just thinks "i'll bluff at it as i've used 25% of my stack trying to catch". Maybe i just wanted to be proved right and that he had AQ and felt that he was ahead as my AK had been 'hidden'.  I did want to know and probably deep down expected A3 or A4 certainly nothing involving a seven, as to me that was a blank!!!!
After those vids you put up, i'm trying to change my approach to pots and though i'm having success at times, there are also occasions where my petard is being hoisted!!! Enjoyable but frustrating at times. Mind it suitsmy mathematical approach. Role on more POKER PARADIGM...good stuff....TY again

simonnatur

I would add to Dohhhh's post that you need to raise pre both for VALUE and maybe more important to offset your POSITIONAL disadvantage for the rest of the hand.

Playing the hand out of POSITION (oop) , we will often miss and have to fold the best hand on the flop without the initiative in the hand.

Playing oop it is also much more difficult to control the pot size - this is perfectly illustrated in the hand. The villain played a relatively small pot untill he outdrew you at which time he was able to control how big it got.

From my own experience it took a long time before the huge significance of position really sank in.

profman15

Cheers S...well put. If i had , he'd have folded probably. My own fancy play syndrome.

percival09

yahhh pretty much what doh said. you're 3betting pre hoping he calls with worse rather than just pushing him off the pot.

profman15

In Response to Re: Hoisted by my own petard with non-standard play BUT.....!!!!:

yahhh pretty much what doh said. you're 3betting pre hoping he calls with worse rather than just pushing him off the pot.
Posted by percival09

 Yea P that's what i was trying to do....hence the title 'hoisted by my own petard'...he chased something he didn't have the pot odds to chase imo., ie less than one in six....yes? I wonder what he'd done if a 2 or 7 hadn't dropped? Posted here? Then you'd be telling him he didn't have the odds to chase.....

BorinLoner

I just want to challenge your rationale for the donk-lead on the flop:

You say that if he has A8, he's unlikely to put you on Ak and will pay you off. That's probably fair but what if he has KQ, KJ, 55, 88, JT, etc? He's just going to fold to your bet most of the time, isn't he? So why not check it to him and let him c-bet as most players will most of the time?

You exploit a wider range of your opponent's potential holdings by checking here, I think.

profman15

In Response to Re: Hoisted by my own petard with non-standard play BUT.....!!!!:

I just want to challenge your rationale for the donk-lead on the flop: You say that if he has A8, he's unlikely to put you on Ak and will pay you off. That's probably fair but what if he has KQ, KJ, 55, 88, JT, etc? He's just going to fold to your bet most of the time, isn't he? So why not check it to him and let him c-bet as most players will most of the time? You exploit a wider range of your opponent's potential holdings by checking here, I think.
Posted by BorinLoner

 Fair point Borin though i think if he had pp, he would stll call my donk bet. My rationale was aimed at making a big pot and my hidden AK, under the correct circumstances, may have done that except that i was mistaken. Maybe i'll go back to fit/fold eh? Ha