Your thoughts please

profman15

hi guys,
Cut and paste works(no difference in what i'd done and took a couple of attempts but i'm smiling!!!
 In Woogie league lying 4 top ten/20 with 1st to my right who is betting to bully at times. I've check raised him off a couple of pots. Got this hand and wanted to disguise a bit. I decided to check which is probably an error but 3-bet would be 1200, about 15% andi wanted to assess on flop. Flop comes down. Bingo! I expect a CTN bet and decide to call in position as he'll bet turn, i'm sure and i rainbow flop takes draws away. Turn is a blank. He bets again and i decide to reraise Now he ai's which is really a pot-sized bet (effective).
What does he have? Well Q2, Q6, 22, 66 are beating me. He'll be betting with his stack probably more to bully but in small blind you'd expect premier hand or suited connectors..He would bet with a Q in his hand now surely and QK, QJ, QT are easily hands to bet with here. Even a pocket pair he may feel ahead with.
Anyway, did i play it right. Maybe reraise pre flop? Mind i wouldn't have felt happy if he'd 4 bet i'd have had to fold surely?

Be interested in knowing how you'd play it and the hand you feel he has....

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceyidette9Small blind 100.00100.0012140.00antobeBig blind 200.00300.0011577.50 Your hole cardsQA   £££
Raise 400.00700.0019175.00profman15Call 400.001100.007935.00emerson01Fold    yidette9Fold    antobeFold    Flop  Q6Q   £££
Bet 550.001650.0018625.00profman15Call 550.002200.007385.00Turn  2   £££
Bet 1100.003300.0017525.00profman15Raise 2200.005500.005185.00£££
All-in 17525.0023025.000.00profman15All-in 5185.0028210.000.00£££
Unmatched bet 11240.0016970.0011240.00          River  4         

mj8bs

arghhhh **** pop ups I just typed a response and got logged out and lost it.

I 3 bet pre for a start...poss even Jam it in pre...thats something I picked up from scotty77 as he done it a few times to me and shown up with big A (usually when I call with TT or JJ). 

As played, I dont think I can find a fold here. He could show up with worse Qs or maybe even AA or KK enough of the time. 

profman15

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

arghhhh **** pop ups I just typed a response and got logged out and lost it. I 3 bet pre for a start...poss even Jam it in pre...thats something I picked up from scotty77 as he done it a few times to me and shown up with big A (usually when I call with TT or JJ).  As played, I dont think I can find a fold here. He could show up with worse Qs or maybe even AA or KK enough of the time. 
Posted by mj8bs

Hi mj

I can understand the raise pre but i didn't as a 4-bet would push me off i feel. He has a very large stack and may takea punt  but i don't feel AQs is strong enough to call an effective ai with. Do you? I'm surprised that a shove with 40 bb's would be considered and that scotty77 might suggest that as the opponents raise size hasn't varied so he may have a very good hand and be trapping..
I didn't feel that i was in any desperate mode whatsoever. When i hit in position, i want value and know my opponent will bet on turn. If he doesn't then i will but the flop is rinbow with no draws. I'll put his hand up tomoz to give a couple of others chance to have a guess etc. Cheers

percival09

3b pre for value

raise otf > raise ott imo

obv youre never folding

bearlyther

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

3b pre for value raise otf /> raise ott imo obv youre never folding
Posted by percival09

Dont like to 3 bet pre as the raise has come from utg and we are utg +1 if he 4 bets we have to fold.

percival09

I think most players in a micro tournament will call with worse often enough

mj8bs

Sorry I misread the stack sizes/blinds. Im never jamming AQ there. I thought you had 20bb not 40. Ive seen him do it with ~20bb back over the top but id hate to suggest he does it with 40 lol.

I definitely 3 bet pre. We're 5 handed and have AQs and (likely) position. I make it 1200 ish to go. If he decides to come along then gl to him.
As played, I prob reraise the flop. You can definitely get called by worse on that flop and youve already said that youve C/R him off a few pots so he may just not beleive you.

rancid

whatever u do, your showing strenght by raising and oppo showing some too

AQ is the best Q - stick it in w/e your never hero folding - that would be silly - gg nh sir

don't mind that flat pre - probably flat turn too
ok to 3 bet pre if you know oppo raising range from UTG + what oppo going to call 3 bet with oop

percival09

he's deep. he'll prob make a (bad) case for calling w/ his entire opening range. yes its utg but its 5 handed, his opening range should still prob be quite wide, but idk the player

offshoot

Dont raise turn. Youre just giving him an opportunity to fold.You can get it all in on the river if you just call.

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

Dont raise turn. Youre just giving him an opportunity to fold.You can get it all in on the river if you just call.
Posted by offshoot

This^

Understand your turning your hand face up by c/r the turn so you should only do this if your capable of sometimes c/r with a bluff. c/r is fine if opponent has reason to be believe that you are going to have a bluff a decent % of the time in this spot.

If this is not the case then I think I like c/c the turn and leading river unless opponent triple barrels a lot.

YOUNG_GUN

Deep enough to 3 bet Pre here, but it is villain dependent..

Why do you raise the turn?? 2 is the biggest blank ever so just call and shove river

discount Q2, q6 and 22(not totally but pretty unlikely)

He pretty much always has here 66/AQ/KQ/QJ ,so we should be good here alot of the time here

percival09

assuming you have a tight (not v.spewy) image pman,

flat flop and turn >>>>> raise otf >>>>>>> raise ott

profman15

Hi guys

Some really good points. Fair points about maybe check turn etc, pre-bet etc, but we all have a different way about it. We all have different approaches to a pot, i suppose and experience alters it hopefully for the better.
 My view of the big stack was that he was bet/bet/bet to bully smaller stacks but  I think my image had been  tight and aggressive in places. I call flop because i have a good idea he will bet turn...when he does and i reraise weakly, i feel that his stack size may give him the opportunity to fight for the pot with a Q in his hand.
I agree that we should be good vast majority of time and i did disregard some hands. HOWEVER.......

............UNFORTUNATELY HE HAD Q2 OFFSUIT....which stopped me in my tacks. He did say he was carrying on from the flop whether i'd bet anyway. I didn't tilt because i didn't 3 bet pre. I wanted to disguise my hand and wanted to see a flop as i wouldn't call a 4 bet with this stack size. Just take the rough with the smooth but i did have a plan, i felt. I just saw it as a cooler and wasn't too upset with my play.

Haemophile

I know it seems stupid but i'm guessing he was bluffing with a 3-5 and you lost the hand

profman15

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please : This^ Understand your turning your hand face up by c/r the turn so you should only do this if your capable of sometimes c/r with a bluff. c/r is fine if opponent has reason to be believe that you are going to have a bluff a decent % of the time in this spot. If this is not the case then I think I like c/c the turn and leading river unless opponent triple barrels a lot.
Posted by Curt360x27

Hi Curt

Glad to see you replied . I appreciate it and apologise for the tantrum the other day as well as the sarky Scouse humour(humour i hear you say?).
 I check raised because without a Queen, imo, he's not betting on river to my mind but a few hands before i'd check raised him off a pot which he took a long time to decide on. I thought he was a bit irked and a similar ch/r may get him to dive in .I was trying to play the player with what had happened recently between us but i can understand where call then bet river would/could/should work but if he had ppr and i let him catch i'd be kicking myself.

Curt360x27

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please : Hi Curt Glad to see you replied . I appreciate it and apologise for the tantrum the other day as well as the sarky Scouse humour(humour i hear you say?).  I check raised because without a Queen, imo, he's not betting on river to my mind but a few hands before i'd check raised him off a pot which he took a long time to decide on. I thought he was a bit irked and a similar ch/r may get him to dive in .I was trying to play the player with what had happened recently between us but i can understand where call then bet river would/could/should work but if he had ppr and i let him catch i'd be kicking myself.
Posted by profman15

No probs.

With this in mind then I think c/r the turn is fine as he will/could be suspicious of being bluffed of the hand if it's not the first time you have made a similar move. Obv with the strength of your hand you should be v. happy about getting it in. Just UL that he binked.

profman15

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please : No probs. With this in mind then I think c/r the turn is fine as he will/could be suspicious of being bluffed of the hand if it's not the first time you have made a similar move. Obv with the strength of your hand you should be v. happy about getting it in. Just UL that he binked.
Posted by Curt360x27

 Cheers Curt.......thought he'd be calling with possible underpair as non-believer but more probably QKs/QJs/QTs as that would be a starting hand to raise with in that position. Glad you accepted the apology.....i was out of order.

PuppetJack

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please : Hi mj I can understand the raise pre but i didn't as a 4-bet would push me off i feel.
Posted by profman15

If you know he's an active laggy player and you feel the 4bet light IS within his repertoire, then I don't think you should absolutely fold to his 4 bet. If you think that he's only 4betting you with a monster then the fold is the right thing.
The fact is that by not 3betting pre, you're allowing him to small raise in with all manner of tosh hands, including mini pairs which, as you say (6s,2s or Q-2 (as it was)), could smash the flop. By raising pre you're re-asking him the question, & his reply will govern whether you still feel that your hand usurps his or whether he's only pushing back at your 3bet with a hand that has you dominated.

percival09

you're raising pre for value not to get info. also youwant hands like Q2 to stay in the pot so if he's opening really wide but not calling 3bets you should flat pre to keep his weaker hands in. I agree vs some players 3b/5b is fine

profman15

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please:

In Response to Re: Your thoughts please : If you know he's an active laggy player and you feel the 4bet light IS within his repertoire, then I don't think you should absolutely fold to his 4 bet. If you think that he's only 4betting you with a monster then the fold is the right thing. The fact is that by not 3betting pre, you're allowing him to small raise in with all manner of tosh hands, including mini pairs which, as you say (6s,2s or Q-2 (as it was)), could smash the flop. By raising pre you're re-asking him the question, & his reply will govern whether you still feel that your hand usurps his or whether he's only pushing back at your 3bet with a hand that has you dominated.
Posted by PuppetJack

Hi P

You know i'm thinking exactly that. I could have discounted Q2 as a possible hand he'd have if i'd three-betted as you say.  But i did even when flop and turn came as i didn't expect anyone to ever play that hand. An error i admit but I suppose we were fencing a little bit and as the biggest stack in the T at the time, he was pushing people around, as he should. I was trying to trap in a way by hiding my hand strength. Maybe a poor decision admittedly.  TBH, i do wonder if he'd not carried on even as he'd done it with others though maybe the hand wasn't so weak. There wa a plan and i appreciate your opinion but do you feel i can carry on in the pot when i don't know his 4=betting range with AQs if he does 4 bet?. Surely with 40bb's i'm not at the stage to be calling then. I could do the maths of equity, win/lose etc but that is only as good as your assumptions. i've never seen this guy before TBH.
 TY for your post