Another Leg of same event...forum special QQ V AJo V AKo

profman15 · December 2012

Here we go.....

Blinds 20/40. tables in both had been very aggro and tended to be a few looking to take chance with early double up. All players here had 30BB+ stacks.

HAND
UTG 3xbb raise, call from Hj w/ QQ. I see a very good player who'd doubled up first hand with AA in bb. He is aggro especially with this ss and callers so i expect him to reraise to squeeze UTG prob with a better hand may fold and i could ai to be up v squeezer. If not i may see a A on flop and reassess.

sb calls and BB ai's with AJo. UTG calls w/ AKo. I call w/ QQ and am covered. I feel i have to call obv and have 57% equity pre. Ace comes on flop and i don't recover.
QUESTIONS
Should i ai after caller in HJ or three bet pre to go up against Ak maybe. As i put in the other post, i'd had some horrid beats and felt that if i could see an aceless flop(possibly no K) then i'd be in driving seat. if an ace came then i could stay in the T by playing more conservatively. After all its 32% that A or K will show on flop, i think.

Without the strong aggro player in BB i'd probably 3 bet raise and look to get it all in pre. It was prbably one of those risk averse decisions that bad beats have pushed me towards. Thoughts?

profman15 · December 2012

I'm listening....please?

DOHHHHHHH · December 2012

3b the utg opener and get it all in pre hopefully

BorinLoner · December 2012

You shouldn't expect people to squeeze UTG raisers who've had two callers. Only if the big blind was a nutcase should you think that he will do that alot of the time without a hand. It's likely he only did it here because he had a strong hand.

That UTG raise should be a fairly tight range and with the caller I think you definitely should be 3-betting. If you call, what will happen far more often than the BB squeezing is that you'll go three, four or five handed to the flop. In those circumstances a bad flop isn't just one that includes an Ace or King, it's almost any flop that doesn't include a Queen for your set. You can easily end up committing a big chunk of your stack to the pot, then folding the best hand through the streets or letting one or more opponent catch up to make the best hand with some junky JT that they wouldn't play to a 3-bet.

So 3-bet pre-flop. You're happy to get it in here and there's plenty of dead money in the middle anyway. Don't overcomplicate spots like this, especially in low-stakes MTT's.

rancid · December 2012

flat is ok, need a kind flop to stack JJ<
3 bet is ok TO GET IT IN

when you flat and bb 3 bets - just jam baby or call da shove

that structure is so fast you wanna increase your stack as quick as possible - QQ is ideal in that set up

AMYBR · December 2012

With reads for high likelyhood of squeeze I like it.

You bring in a dominated 3rd player, who is giving you a chance to triple up rather than double, but brings no extra equity to the pot.

Might want to be careful in terms of balancing your range, but in isolation with stated reads I like it.

profman15 · December 2012

Cheers guys

I'm happy with all your comments.
The forum special as R said is shallow stacked(pity i didn't with you very early T last night on flop w/KK and AJ2 board to allow you to call my CTN bet and catch with 34s EH? Good play as implied odds and chance to double early m8..yes?). Quite pleased that A thought the plan was acceptable though i do agree with B about not expecting a squeeze(i knew he would as well set to even 3 bet light and get heads up, i thought) He did though and if UTG had had AQ- he would have folded and i'd have big pot to play AJo and shave a 70:30 situation.
I agree that normally in low stakes i'd 3 bet but this was a risk worth taking. I'm pleased that i'd considered other players to come and their tendancies. I know pretty well if an Ace comes on flop that i'm sunk especially with a utg raise. Fact that such a shallow T and players where playing for a league place so slightly different and shall we say, looser ranges being played, should have got me to 3 bet and rer all-in.
Cheers guys ....learning all the time. 2nd place in the other leg last night calmed the waves a bit too but i think i may take a break from playing a bit and do some work on my poker MOT. All best. cheers

bearlyther · December 2012

Dont 3 bet an utg opener with a premium hand like kk,qq,aa in the first couple of blind levels later on we can do it as the blinds go up. Eg. If someone opens utg with aq and they get 3 bet in the 1st blind level it is an easy fold. So instead if we flat with a hand like aa,kk in the 1st blind level provided of course he is the only guy in the pot it will be much more profitable for us to call with a view to raising any flop. If the flop comes q high and we raise the flop we can probobly make him go broke whereas if we 3bet pre if the guy is a reg it will be an easy fold for him.

People in poker these days are generally good preflop folding a 3bet with aq in the 1st blind level is easy for a reg as people are generally not going to be 3 betting light in the first couple of blind levels. Therefore is most people are good preflop are edge should be postflop poker. We need to balance our range differently against regs to put them in tough spots.

If we are playing against a fish 3 bet these hands all day long at the early blind levels with premium hands as they will call anyway.

profman15 · December 2012

In Response to Re: Another Leg of same event...forum special QQ V AJo V AKo:

Dont 3 bet an utg opener with a premium hand like kk,qq,aa in the first couple of blind levels later on we can do it as the blinds go up. Eg. If someone opens utg with aq and they get 3 bet in the 1st blind level it is an easy fold. So instead if we flat with a hand like aa,kk in the 1st blind level provided of course he is the only guy in the pot it will be much more profitable for us to call with a view to raising any flop. If the flop comes q high and we raise the flop we can probobly make him go broke whereas if we 3bet pre if the guy is a reg it will be an easy fold for him. People in poker these days are generally good preflop folding a 3bet with aq in the 1st blind level is easy for a reg as people are generally not going to be 3 betting light in the first couple of blind levels. Therefore is most people are good preflop are edge should be postflop poker. We need to balance our range differently against regs to put them in tough spots. If we are playing against a fish 3 bet these hands all day long at the early blind levels with premium hands as they will call anyway.
Posted by bearlyther

Hi B

So you think i did the correct thing B?
By the way, your comment about players NOT 3 betting light early doors.
Sorry not tonight. If only they believed my raise, then reraise all in utg with AKs early with 4000 chips called in two positions in the Orfordable 10 hdd T after one had 3 bet. Their hands?.....probably QQ and maybe even KK yes? NOOOOOOOOOOOO.......

........J9s AND J8o. (9 hit so bye bye) One of 'em had 3 bet light!!!! Unfortunately, not all situations are so straightforward eh? Think this was 10 hands into the T.
Can someone explain this to me other than it's a friday night and alcohol is involved!!!

Having a few days off.....run well guys

BorinLoner · December 2012

I don't agree at all that people, even regs, are good at folding to pre-flop 3-bets in the early levels of low stakes MTT's. This isn't TommyD or offshoot in the Roller, after all. That and we've already seen the opening raise called mean this is a clear 3-bet spot in my mind. As I say, if we call here I think we go multi-way to a flop far more often than there is a squeeze or value raise behind us.

I suppose what you define as "early" is pretty subjective but with 30BB average this isn't the early "early" stages. This certainly isn't the first couple of levels anyway.

I will agree with bearlyther on one thing, though: If we're only 3-betting in the "early" stages with hands like QQ then we're going to be very easy to play against.

bearlyther · December 2012

Sorry didnt see stack sizes here yep im looking to get it in pre with 30bb effective stacks i just assumed you were a lot deeper with 20/40 blinds so yea i 3 bet here.

However its just a point im making that in the 1st blind level it can be more profitable to call with kk,qq,aa pre if we think we are going to get it heads up with the opponant with a view to raising any flop as a reg will be folding hands like aq etc oop to a 3 bet at this blind level. It is not relevant to this hand however as we are only 30bb deep just something to think about i suppose for the future.

rancid · December 2012

FWIW don't think it's the only line you have to 3 bet get it in
Still think you have an option of flatting and keeping worse in that will fold 3 bet's or never 4 bet commit
For example you want AJ to hit top pr and double up post flop
If you think oppo will happily 4 bet shove on you with worse then it's a very easy 3 bet
if you think oppo will flat with worse then again it's a very easy 3 bet
tis nice to know what oppo's will do with their range when you going to 3 bet them
It's also important to think about what your image is, and what you think oppo's put u on
A lot people don't even consider how their actions will affect other peoples actions
If you 3 bet, AJ probabaly folds

Yeah so ok you have to play good post to flat, but you have postion so...easy game

profman15 · December 2012

Hi guys
Some really good posts here, i think, and a lot of food for thought. "Early stages". How do you judge? Average stack sizes in terms of BB's? Ratio of people busted? Average Stack per pot ratio? It was a 2000 chip T and was very shallow. Yes Bb but average of 30BB's signifies what exactly? My stages i've tended to base on payers busted ie 10% Early, 20% E to M, $40% Middle, 20% M to late, 10% late though for a small field it has problems doesn't it?
My image?...well it's difficult for me to judge. i have averages of SKY's statistics for various T's but they aren't particularly relevant eg flops sees does not correlate to VPIP very well etc. Consequenfly i'm unsure of my overall image to other players. Probably a bit nitty and naive possibly...ha! What do you think? Beware though, my solicitor is a phone call away!!
Overall without the BB 'guess' i should 3 bet but i feel the 4 bet ai is coming because of stack sizes and numbe of callers because players were willing to take a punt due to the nature of the league(two best scores). Ty guys....appreciate all your contributions....

DOHHHHHHH · December 2012

In Response to Re: Another Leg of same event...forum special QQ V AJo V AKo:

Hi guys Some really good posts here, i think, and a lot of food for thought. "Early stages". How do you judge? Average stack sizes in terms of BB's? Ratio of people busted? Average Stack per pot ratio? It was a 2000 chip T and was very shallow. Yes Bb but average of 30BB's signifies what exactly? My stages i've tended to base on payers busted ie 10% Early, 20% E to M, $40% Middle, 20% M to late, 10% late though for a small field it has problems doesn't it? My image?...well it's difficult for me to judge. i have averages of SKY's statistics for various T's but they aren't particularly relevant eg flops sees does not correlate to VPIP very well etc. Consequenfly i'm unsure of my overall image to other players. Probably a bit nitty and naive possibly...ha! What do you think? Beware though, my solicitor is a phone call away!! Overall without the BB 'guess' i should 3 bet but i feel the 4 bet ai is coming because of stack sizes and numbe of callers because players were willing to take a punt due to the nature of the league(two best scores). Ty guys....appreciate all your contributions....
Posted by profman15

What's the bolded bit all about Prof? What does it matter what stage of the tourny it is?

The only important info is the relative stack sizes.

Here, it's 30xbb effective? QQ is good for 30xbb in 6max!

profman15 · December 2012

In Response to Re: Another Leg of same event...forum special QQ V AJo V AKo:

In Response to Re: Another Leg of same event...forum special QQ V AJo V AKo : What's the bolded bit all about Prof? What does it matter what stage of the tourny it is? The only important info is the relative stack sizes. Here, it's 30xbb effective? QQ is good for 30xbb in 6max!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Hi Dohhhhhh
The stuff in bold referred to Borin saying it is not early T as i had 30bb's only. It was an aside about judging the stages of T it is accepted as. Someone(not me) posted the stages as 'per % busted' idea up once. However i agree the 300 BB effective is the important thing but does seem high to shove for litle ol' risk averse me. Now that's another string to my bow D. Be prepared next time i shove with 30 bb eff.....you'll know what i have,,ha!
I was quite pleased with the idea of possibly being up v a lees strong hand and at least i had a plan....just a shame it didn't quite work out. Even if i'd 3 bet then UTG was going AI i think. don't you?
Anyway how do you deternine the stages of a T eg early, middle, late etc?

Another Leg of same event...forum special QQ V AJo V AKo

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