2 pair on a dryish board

waller02

this hand is in the mini BH. villain is a decent reg.

Did I play the flop correctly? the shove on the turn confuses me.......surely its not a set?? poss a better 2 pair...we both have massive stacks having doubled up early....is this a fold?

bluesboyjo	Small blind		15.00	15.00	1825.00
waller02	Big blind		30.00	45.00	4380.00
	Your hole cards	2 K
jgdog	Call		30.00	75.00	1545.00
x	Call		30.00	105.00	4175.00
PUCPOUND	Fold
nagor	Fold
bluesboyjo	Call		15.00	120.00	1810.00
waller02	Check
Flop
		7 K 2
bluesboyjo	Check
waller02	Bet		90.00	210.00	4290.00
jgdog	Fold
x	Raise		270.00	480.00	3905.00
bluesboyjo	Fold
waller02	Call		180.00	660.00	4110.00
Turn
		Q
waller02	Check
x	All-in		3905.00	4565.00	0.00
waller02	??

grantorino

V a decent reg I would be shocked to see anything other than 22, 77. Flop is prob a fold, turn definitely a fold imo

percival09

lol what decent reg overbet shoves ott w/ 22 or 77

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: 2 pair on a dryish board:

lol what decent reg overbet shoves ott w/ 22 or 77
Posted by percival09

+1

I'm not sure how you're defining "decent reg". Maybe they post on the forum or something but this shove is not good play whatever his hand (unless he has a set and he's seen you call off shoves very light many times in the past).

I don't fold. I'm not massively surprised to see better two-pairs or sets against weaker players but I think more often it's some weird draw or top-pair. I think folding is fine if you think you have a big edge on the table, though.

grantorino

In Response to Re: 2 pair on a dryish board:

In Response to Re: 2 pair on a dryish board : +1 I'm not sure how you're defining "decent reg". Maybe they post on the forum or something but this shove is not good play whatever his hand (unless he has a set and he's seen you call off shoves very light many times in the past). I don't fold. I'm not surprised to see better two-pairs or sets against weaker players but I think more often it's some weird draw or top-pair. I think folding is fine if you think you have a big edge on the table, though.
Posted by BorinLoner

Ok let's assume decent reg means not complete doofus

What draws can he have?

Two pair unlikely, but they all beat you, If he did it with KQ on flop ( most likely 1pair hand imo) he just got there

Overbet shove weird, much more likely for value rather than a bluff imo. He has raised a raggy dry board after op lead into 3 players after checking in bb, with another player left to act. His rationale for over shove more likely to be Waller looks strong here imo than ooh I have KT let's go nuts

BorinLoner

It's not that I want to question Waller's view of this player but this shove looks much more like something a pretty bad player would do. I can't think how a decent player would rationalise it at all. I think the play in this hand, almost on it's own, defines the player as either not a decent player or one who's tilting/tipsy and not playing this hand well.

In light of that: The draws he can have are the flush draws he picks up on the turn having bluffed on the flop. Hence the description as "weird". I think it's just as likely to be a bluff with no hand at all.

I'm not sure that the bet-call on the flop, then check on the turn is ever likely to make someone think that their opponent is strong enough to call a massive overshove. It's unlikely anybody playing a nutted hand would think that a shove is likely to be called in the face of that action.

It comes down to the definition of the player as "decent" but I can literally only make the one defence of this play; in the case of Waller frequently calling overshoves light. If that's not the case, it's impossible to defend the play and almost defines him as not being very good or at least as not playing very well.

grantorino

In Response to Re: 2 pair on a dryish board:

I agree the shove is not something a decent reg tends to do. I can only take ops read at face value, obv he might readjust reads depending on results here (maybe anyway). If villain is on tilt it should have been mentioned. 

I don't like giving a 4 combo range to anyone usually, but seriously unless there is some meta game involved I'm finding it tough to assign much else to villain. He limps behind pre  with players left to act, then raises a superdry limped pot, after a reg in bb bets it 4 way ,with sb still live. People who play like regs rarely go nuts in limped pots without nutty hands. Agreed the shove is weird but I don't think he gets to turn without a made hand

Also can't see how heros checking turn looks weak (or weaker than leading at any rate), it's super standard once he flats flop. I think hero can justify flatting flop with the nuts also, heros perceived range should be pretty strong imo. 

BorinLoner

I don't think the OP's line looks weak, I think it looks pretty standard... but how many times is this line just top pair and how many times is a set or two-pair? Just based on the frequency with which those hands are dealt, it's much more often going to be just top-pair and top-pair doesn't call this shove very often. If you're the villain sat on a set of sevens or twos you know how unlikely it is that the OP has the other set.

I think the bet-call on the flop should be pretty strong but I don't think that's what you see from most players and subsequently I don't think the OP's perceived flatting range would be that strong. I wouldn't be giving my opponent a really strong range here unless I knew they were a very strong player. (Not that I'm saying Waller isn't seen as very strong. I have no idea what his image is)

I question the assessment of the villain as being a "decent reg" mainly because of the hand. However I've played alot of forum regs and players with quite big winning records and I've found alot of them have massive leaks and just aren't as good as their reputations suggest. I think the big problem is what we define as "decent". It's such a subjective term. I've just seen too much poor play from regs regarded as "decent" before to take it at face value.

The bottom line for me is, in the absence of those prior instances of Waller calling shove fairly light, I don't think a bet that screams "Please fold!" is as likely to be strong as it is to be weak. It's usually exactly what it looks like. I think only that possible meta-game skews the balance the other way.

As I say, I don't hate folding if I think I have an edge on the table. I'd call and if I lose it's not a problem. I take a note, so I know what it means when this guy overshoves like this, and move on. Next time he'll be really easy for me to play against.

offshoot

Anyone who limps pre and then goes aggro postflop almost always has it. I think the only hand i would suggest you might be beating is AA that was looking to rr preflop. I would think K7 is also in a limpers range though as is the more obvious 22 and 77.

Maybe villain just got knocked out the main or something and is looking to bust? Thats not really congruent with limping preflop though.

waller02

In Response to Re: 2 pair on a dryish board:

Anyone who limps pre and then goes aggro postflop almost always has it. I think the only hand i would suggest you might be beating is AA that was looking to rr preflop. I would think K7 is also in a limpers range though as is the more obvious 22 and 77. Maybe villain just got knocked out the main or something and is looking to bust? Thats not really congruent with limping preflop though.
Posted by offshoot

soul reads ftw!!!

as far as my description of the villain goes......he isn't a player I have played too much, I haven't scoped him either but I know he regularly runs or at least ran deep in main events so I assume he is no mug.

As I said, the shove just confused me, maybe all the more reason to fold?? but I called.

Didn't expect anyone to guess what hand he had but offshoot crushes every format so prob shouldn't be surprised that he nailed it!!

Yep, AA and he binked a 7 on the river to counterfeit me

Going with the majority I guess I should be folding without specific reads.

TY all