through the streets

bolly580

Hand History #604840472 (14:07 02/01/2013)
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceBergmanSmall blind £0.30£0.30£31.12bet3pm_coBig blind £0.30£0.60£36.49kingjaneBig blind £0.30£0.90£29.40 Your hole cards88   kingjaneRaise £1.20£2.10£28.20stanley08Fold    bolly580Call £1.50£3.60£39.95tomandeleFold    BergmanCall £1.20£4.80£29.92bet3pm_coCall £1.20£6.00£35.29Flop  243   BergmanCheck    bet3pm_coCheck    kingjaneBet £3.00£9.00£25.20bolly580Call £3.00£12.00£36.95BergmanCall £3.00£15.00£26.92bet3pm_coCall £3.00£18.00£32.29Turn  2   BergmanCheck    bet3pm_coCheck    kingjaneCheck    bolly580Bet £7.00£25.00£29.95BergmanCall £7.00£32.00£19.92bet3pm_coFold    kingjaneCall £7.00£39.00£18.20River  3   BergmanCheck    kingjaneCheck    bolly580Check

bolly580

pre- KingJane posts then 5xs utg (gives us a clue she propably a recreational player posting) could 3bet pre put happy to play post flop in position with a value hand

flop-she then cbets 4way, this isnt ideal as it proves she propably has a good hand (bigger pairs than me but could be betting AQ/AK as a gutshot and could be betting 55-77 which i obv beat) could raise the turn dont really like that though inflates the pot with a marginal however would price out drawing oppo's behind. In positional think flattings fine OOp maybe a fold.

Turn-happy that its checked to me does everyone bet here? 2clubs obv one of best cards in deck other than an 8, should i be charging draws or checking back keeping pot small?

river-cant value bet and be called by worse imo easy check back?

liamboi11

I think you played the hand fine preflop and on the flop turn I may bet little bigger maybe £10-12ish but yeah think I check back river also be very thin to v-bet river unless you think villians will call with ax hands.

larry1959

Some players will raise up 5x with a weak or suited A rag and have no idea of table positon. They see the A and not the other card, and think they have the nuts. Personally I would be checking this down and value bet the river. Apart from the over pairs, a flop like that is ideal for A2, A5, A3, and the flat calling would suggest the villian is either chasing a str8 with the A???? or has the nuts..so check it down and value bet the river..if you get raised  then fold, but definately don't shove here.

percival09

pre and flop ok

you've either got to bet the turn, and hopefully don't get raised and then hope to check it back otr/v.thin valuebet, or check it back on the turn, and face a tricky spot on the river if bet into. I prefer betting for value ott like youve done, because I do think youll get called by quite a few worse hands, and then re-evaluating otr. I don't mind checking back otr, but youre definitely ahead some of the time, but being readless and with the stacks as they are you can just check back.

I can't see the stacks, but it'd be interesting if you could ever shove otr (presuming they both started with 100bb) for value vs 2 fish, but I suppose readless you can't

bearlyther

I like betting turn here and checking back the river

Unknown

Flat pre, fold flop. Can't play this hand oop to 2 players and may not even be ahead of intial raiser, how can you play down the streets unless you turn or river a set?

percival09

we're in position or otherwise I'd agree, but because we are ip I think we can flat otf and reassess ott

bearlyther

Dont mean in this spot as we are 4 way but ive started to play small pocket pairs a bit differently the last month or so than i used to as you dont flop a set enough of the time.  So raisng some flops and check raising oop can work quite well i find on certain boards and turn them into a bluff.

bolly580

In Response to Re: through the streets:

Dont mean in this spot as we are 4 way but ive started to play small pocket pairs a bit differently the last month or so than i used to as you dont flop a set enough of the time.  So raisng some flops and check raising oop can work quite well i find on certain boards and turn them into a bluff.
Posted by bearlyther

yeah against a lot of regs you can, "you wont stack with an overpair or top top when i do have a set so now i know i can get you to fold when i pretend to flop one"

bolly580

In Response to Re: through the streets:

Flat pre, fold flop. Can't play this hand oop to 2 players and may not even be ahead of intial raiser, how can you play down the streets unless you turn or river a set?
Posted by CoxyLboro

propably favourite response, not closing action and dont like any turn.

just leaking money really

KKrippler

Think its a fold on the flop, more times than not you'll be against worse.

As played your only getting 2 streets of value, ur just value twning yourself by betting river imo.

TPTP123

Flop is never a fold, unkown has posted and could 5x absolutely any two cards. Call flop you have position on someone who could be playing 100% of their range and hold all 1pair combos like 26o, J5o, etc.  We have 2 players left to act but so what, majority of the time they will fold in this spot unless they have a draw lik AT, 55, etc 

Check turn I have no idea why we bet when it still 4 handed, everyone is telling you they are interested in showdown here imo.  When you do bet turn, bluff call/check behind on this river. Alot of regs can stab here with Ax if they feel you've whiffed

Edit: if your posting thread cos you lost to an overpair than thats a cooler imo. 

bolly580

In Response to Re: through the streets:

Flop is never a fold, unkown has posted and could 5x absolutely any two cards. Call flop you have position on someone who could be playing 100% of their range and hold all 1pair combos like 26o, J5o, etc.  We have 2 players left to act but so what, majority of the time they will fold in this spot unless they have a draw lik AT, 55, etc  Check turn I have no idea why we bet when it still 4 handed, everyone is telling you they are interested in showdown here imo.  When you do bet turn, bluff call/check behind on this river. Alot of regs can stab here with Ax if they feel you've whiffed Edit: if your posting thread cos you lost to an overpair than thats a cooler imo. 
Posted by TPTP123

posting for opinions on play through streets, outcome irrelevant 

Unknown

In Response to Re: through the streets:

Flop is never a fold, unkown has posted and could 5x absolutely any two cards. Call flop you have position on someone who could be playing 100% of their range and hold all 1pair combos like 26o, J5o, etc.  We have 2 players left to act but so what, majority of the time they will fold in this spot unless they have a draw lik AT, 55, etc  Check turn I have no idea why we bet when it still 4 handed, everyone is telling you they are interested in showdown here imo.  When you do bet turn, bluff call/check behind on this river. Alot of regs can stab here with Ax if they feel you've whiffed Edit: if your posting thread cos you lost to an overpair than thats a cooler imo. 
Posted by TPTP123

If one of the people behind us is at all capable of a semi-bluff here, then we are donating money, because we are folding to a flop squeeze pretty much 100% of the time, let alone the fact that 2 people behind us can have flopped straights/sets/flatted 99-TT-JJ pre some of the time as well. We have a marginal hand, multiway, with barely any improvements. I'd rather peel this flop with KQss (seriously)

Unknown

In Response to Re: through the streets:

We have 2 players left to act but so what, majority of the time they will fold in this spot unless they have a draw lik AT, 55, etc

If you are saying they are peeling this flop with any Ax and any 5x, and add that to a range of 55+, we get-

Hold'em Simulation ? 
600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: 2s4c3d

Hand	Equity	Wins	Ties
8s8d	25.95%	152,153	12,734
1%-30%	20.65%	111,146	31,923
1%-20%, 55+, A*, 5*	26.69%	139,713	47,298
1%-20%, 55+, A*, 5*	26.71%	139,829	47,314

Pretty unpleasent imo

TPTP123

If one of the people behind us is at all capable of a semi-bluff here, then we are donating money, because we are folding to a flop squeeze pretty much 100% of the time, let alone the fact that 2 people behind us can have flopped straights/sets/flatted 99-TT-JJ pre some of the time as well. We have a marginal hand, multiway, with barely any improvements. I'd rather peel this flop with KQss (seriously)

Ok, not trying to get into a bumfight but i am happy to agree to disagree or discuss further... ) I'm easy either way!! 

I think you might be be overestimating the level of agression at 30nl, we're not getting sqozen out of the blinds with any draw, unless the flop is say 234xxy instead of 234xyz, and on 234xyz any c/r range from the blinds is very depolarised and made hand heavy which makes life face up for us (in my mind).  

If you are saying they are peeling this flop with any Ax and any 5x, and add that to a range of 55+, we get- Hold'em Simulation  ?   600,000 trials (Randomized) board: 2s4c3d Hand Equity Wins Ties 8s8d 25.95% 152,153 12,734 1%-30% 20.65% 111,146 31,923 1%-20%, 55+, A*, 5* 26.69% 139,713 47,298 1%-20%, 55+, A*, 5* 26.71% 139,829 47,314 Pretty unpleasent imo

Personally I would take 1/4 equity in a 4way flop. 

fwiw i'm not quite saying that they are peeling A* & 5*, just those A's & 5's that are within sb & bb calling range. Also I think orginal raiser has more of a button range for initial mentioned reasons, at least like 37-44% imo. p.s. Don't know if you run alot of ppt sims but 20% automatically includes 55+ so no need to type it in.. just trying to be helpful. 

I've rerun your sim with some adjustments... feel free to adjust further!! I would prob start with the blinds tbh... 

Hand	Equity	Wins	Ties
37%@34,41%@33,44%@33	22.62%	129,595	13,422
88	33.31%	197,950	4,608
20%-5%,Ax8y-Ax2y	22.05%	123,518	18,708
20%-5%,Ax8y-Ax2y	22.01%	123,297	18,701

Unknown

In Response to Re: through the streets:

Ok, not trying to get into a bumfight but i am happy to agree to disagree or discuss further... ) I'm easy either way!!  I think you might be be overestimating the level of agression at 30nl, we're not getting sqozen out of the blinds with any draw, unless the flop is say 234xxy instead of 234xyz, and on 234xyz any c/r range from the blinds is very depolarised and made hand heavy which makes life face up for us (in my mind).   Personally I would take 1/4 equity in a 4way flop.  fwiw i'm not quite saying that they are peeling A* & 5*, just those A's & 5's that are within sb & bb calling range. Also I think orginal raiser has more of a button range for initial mentioned reasons, at least like 37-44% imo. p.s. Don't know if you run alot of ppt sims but 20% automatically includes 55+ so no need to type it in.. just trying to be helpful.  I've rerun your sim with some adjustments... feel free to adjust further!! I would prob start with the blinds tbh...  Hand Equity Wins Ties 37%@34,41%@33,44%@33 22.62% 129,595 13,422 88 33.31% 197,950 4,608 20%-5%,Ax8y-Ax2y 22.05% 123,518 18,708 20%-5%,Ax8y-Ax2y 22.01% 123,297 18,701
Posted by TPTP123

Well, I must clearly submit to your superior PPT skills I just feel that this is a hand we can almost never bet for value, so we call flop and hope for brick-brick in order to win at showdown, and then sometimes we still dont win. 

TPTP123

In Response to Re: through the streets:

In Response to Re: through the streets : Well, I must clearly submit to your superior PPT skills I just feel that this is a hand we can almost never bet for value, so we call flop and hope for brick-brick in order to win at showdown, and then sometimes we still dont win. 
Posted by CoxyLboro

haha... i used to use it v often for plo, thats all. 

just feel on passive table we're in good shape... on an agressive table 100nl+.... i fully agree with you orginal post. 

beaneh

being squozed

TPTP123

In Response to Re: through the streets:

being squozed
Posted by beaneh

lol.. You can cop a sqooze anytime if you carrying on talking sense... 

tbf though its not me, i are only qouting aejones - his term i believe