Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????

larry1959

Whilst AA is regarded as the 'Best Starting' hand in  Texas Holdem, in the early stages can prove to be the reason for an early exit in a tournie. I hear the objections to this statement, but here are the reasons behind my theory....

 Blinds in the early stages are to low to be able to make a real impact bet, blinds @ 10-20...raising 3xBB with your AA pockets= 3% of your starting chip stack...5xBB= 5% chip stack, these amounts are a small price to pay to see a flop in respect to every players starting stack. Therefore increases the chance you will be called with connecting cards by more players. Yes, I hear you say..you want callers to build the pot,BUT, the more players in the pot the less chance your AA will stand up..


your hand = As Ad  position=button... you have 2 limpers..you raise 5xBB (100)... SB folds BB calls for 80 chips(4% of their stack) as do the 2 limpers... flop = 7s8s Jd... it's checked round to you.. you bet around 50% pot you get 2 callers and one fold.. turn= 2h nothing has changed..it's checked to you you bet again around 50% pot or a little higher...you are raised all in...the other player folds and you snap call..you've beaten his J Q or A J (he wouldn't call a 5xBB with 9/10 would he!?!?!?..) or he could just be on a flush draw....he turns over 9s and 10c....you're drawing dead and out of the tournie...

The above scenario was a hand I actually saw played in a Bounty Hunter and have seen and experienced similar hands, time and time again...the sort of tournament that the 'trapper'' becomes the ''trapped'', especially early on....most players allow themselves a certain amount of chips for ''splashing around'' in the early levels and try and double up early on with these sort of hands...

The only way I can see to play AA early stages is just shove all in str8 off and just grab the blinds and don't risk being called by those with connected pockets...this way you will only get called by pocket pairs, AK, AQ..which will increase the chances of your AA holding up... Make it too expensive for your connecting card players to call.....

There will be critisism on this post... but i think the majority will agree.....

bearlyther

In Response to Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

The only way I can see to play AA early stages is just shove all in str8 off and just grab the blinds and don't risk being called by those with connected pockets...this way you will only get called by pocket pairs, AK, AQ..which will increase the chances of your AA holding up... Make it too expensive for your connecting card players to call..... There will be critisism on this post... but i think the majority will agree.....
Posted by larry1959

This has got to be a level larry right?

larry1959

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

In Response to Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies?????? : This has got to be a level larry right?
Posted by bearlyther

I've seen the above scenario at all levels...from £2.30-£110 buy-in B/H's and tournies like The Primo.

But as regards blind levels, it happens less and less the deeper the tournie goes, as the % of chip stack becomes higher to call.

jonjo75

Anyone who open shoves with AA or KK in the early stages of a tourney either has:

1. No experience in the game.

2. No ability in the game. ( i.e :can not fold when obv behind)

3. Not thought it through well enough.

I can not say the amount of times I have had AA or KK  in the early levels and someone has called with KQ hit top pair and stacked with it. Are you really saying you should miss out on all these spots.

JSTFLIPPIN

Because blinds are that low giving people odds to hit their flush/straight/set, whereas when blinds are higher you can just shove and will lose less.

larry1959

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

Anyone who open shoves with AA or KK in the early stages of a tourney either has: 1. No experience in the game. 2. No ability in the game. ( i.e :can not fold when obv behind) 3. Not thought it through well enough. I can not say the amount of times I have had AA or KK  in the early levels and someone has called with KQ hit top pair and stacked with it. Are you really saying you should miss out on all these spots.
Posted by jonjo75

Although I see your point, and yes there are these spots early on with AA and KK pockets...but, having checked back over a period of time, and looked at the hands that I was knocked out of tournies early with.. pocket A's and K's were the top of the list, because of the amount of callers and what players call with, purely because its relatively cheap in relation to stack sizes......I disagree with your experience statement, because there are those who have played for a couple of years and still play like ''calling stations'' if they get any part of a flop or what they think is a reasonable starting hand and think they are good players if they hit...
There are a lot of players that, even top players on this site, still go bust with pocket A's early on in tournies,purely for the reasons stated..if you can put down pocket A's..... then good on you and some excellent play....but the majority don't or can't, because they don't expect to be called by far inferior starting hands...

TINTIN

In Response to Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

Whilst AA is regarded as the 'Best Starting' hand in  Texas Holdem, in the early stages can prove to be the reason for an early exit in a tournie. I hear the objections to this statement, but here are the reasons behind my theory....  Blinds in the early stages are to low to be able to make a real impact bet, blinds @ 10-20...raising 3xBB with your AA pockets= 3% of your starting chip stack...5xBB= 5% chip stack, these amounts are a small price to pay to see a flop in respect to every players starting stack. Therefore increases the chance you will be called with connecting cards by more players. Yes, I hear you say..you want callers to build the pot,BUT, the more players in the pot the less chance your AA will stand up.. your hand = As Ad  position=button... you have 2 limpers..you raise 5xBB (100)... SB folds BB calls for 80 chips(4% of their stack) as do the 2 limpers... flop = 7s8s Jd... it's checked round to you.. you bet around 50% pot you get 2 callers and one fold.. turn= 2h nothing has changed..it's checked to you you bet again around 50% pot or a little higher...you are raised all in...the other player folds and you snap call..you've beaten his J Q or A J (he wouldn't call a 5xBB with 9/10 would he!?!?!?..) or he could just be on a flush draw....he turns over 9s and 10c....you're drawing dead and out of the tournie... The above scenario was a hand I actually saw played in a Bounty Hunter and have seen and experienced similar hands, time and time again...the sort of tournament that the 'trapper'' becomes the ''trapped'', especially early on....most players allow themselves a certain amount of chips for ''splashing around'' in the early levels and try and double up early on with these sort of hands... The only way I can see to play AA early stages is just shove all in str8 off and just grab the blinds and don't risk being called by those with connected pockets...this way you will only get called by pocket pairs, AK, AQ..which will increase the chances of your AA holding up... Make it too expensive for your connecting card players to call..... There will be critisism on this post... but i think the majority will agree.....
Posted by larry1959

i would say the vast majority will disagree, me included

larry1959

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

In Response to Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies?????? : i would say the vast majority will disagree, me included
Posted by TINTIN

The post is about WHY AA POCKETS GET BUST MORE OFTEN IN EARLY STAGES OF TOURNIES...not a general rule, but an analysis, based on personal experiences and observations..... ;-)

DOHHHHHHH

Just learn to play post flop................

D_Legend

to provide a few reasons y could get busted early:

 

- blinds and ante are so low so a utg raise with aa will get muti callers pre 

or even the iso on the button will get call muti. (some times)

- more people will be more willing to call to hit draws on the flop

- trash hand can become mosters mutiway

- aa win %  muti way goes down

- player regural play loose early door because the bvlinds sre so low 

early door post flop play is very inportant 

i would add there is more danger because of the reason above.

hope this helps.

TINTIN

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies?????? : The post is about WHY AA POCKETS GET BUST MORE OFTEN IN EARLY STAGES OF TOURNIES...not a general rule, but an analysis, based on personal experiences and observations..... ;-)
Posted by larry1959

well re read your op. you gave an example then a summary of what you think you could do to overcome that and finished it off with the statement i bolded in last post.

i still stand by what i said the vast majority will disagree with all points you posted

BorinLoner

Larry, don't do this if you want to win tournaments.

Yes, there are tricky spots with AA, when we can go bust. Most of the time, though, they just win us a middling pot and we carry on without thinking about it. Sometimes we play a big pot with them but alot of those times we'll be up against draws, etc and will get it in as a favourite.

When we go out in the early stages with AA, we shouldn't go back and think "Stupid AA, I'm never getting involved with those again!" We should look back on the hand, ask ourselves if we played the hand properly and if there was any chance we could have got away. If there was a chance to get away, then we try to learn from the hand. If there was no chance to get away or we got it in as a favourite, we just have to shrug our shoulders and accept that it's part of poker. We can't always win with the best hand and we can't always get away from the worst hand.

Banging the lot in pre-flop with your monster pairs is going to cost you so much long-term value. You shouldn't worry about going out early in tournaments, just worry about playing your hand as well as you can. If you just do that, you'll get results.

larry1959

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

Just learn to play post flop................
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Any expansion on this DOHHHHHHH??? As explained in post, bet size against % stack..so standard betting doesn't get players off mediocre hands.....

jugglegeek

They don't. Pre flop AA is just as likely to win the hand when the blinds are 10/20 as when they are 1k/2k. The difference is that while pre flop AA is the nuts after the flop it's less likely that they are the nuts. On a fairly inocuous board, 962r for example AA would be the 7th best hand (after 99,66,22,96,62 and 92). As stacks get deeper, implied odds ome into play more and so starting hand values are less important than post-flop ability and the likely hood of your disguised monster getting paid off. So calling a 3x from a 100BB stack with 66 is fine and if you flop 962r then you can get the money in. If you miss you can fold and it only cost you 6% of your stack.

So in short, later in a tournement when the stacks relitive to blinds is smaller, your AA is likely to go up against hands like AK/AQ and premium pairs because they are likely ahead of most hands pre-flop. While earlier on players are happy to take flops with junk just to flop /> 2pair.

Learn to play post flop and stop moaning.

larry1959

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

They don't. Pre flop AA is just as likely to win the hand when the blinds are 10/20 as when they are 1k/2k. The difference is that while pre flop AA is the nuts after the flop it's less likely that they are the nuts. On a fairly inocuous board, 962r for example AA would be the 7th best hand (after 99,66,22,96,62 and 92). As stacks get deeper, implied odds ome into play more and so starting hand values are less important than post-flop ability and the likely hood of your disguised monster getting paid off. So calling a 3x from a 100BB stack with 66 is fine and if you flop 962r then you can get the money in. If you miss you can fold and it only cost you 6% of your stack. So in short, later in a tournement when the stacks relitive to blinds is smaller, your AA is likely to go up against hands like AK/AQ and premium pairs because they are likely ahead of most hands pre-flop. While earlier on players are happy to take flops with junk just to flop /> 2pair. Learn to play post flop and stop moaning.
Posted by jugglegeek

It wasn't a moan..but what I thought was a valid observation...and one i thought would create a discussion, which is what the clinic is all about....

beaneh

haven't read the thread, but this is so stupid it hurts.

Lambert180

Larry this is madness.

I agree to a point that bad players are more likely to get stacked early on with AA and this is exactly why people plays hands like 78s in. People will and should call and raise with more speculative hands in early stages cos we are deep and can play more 'poker'.

What Doh means is 'learn how to read board texture', we're deep at the start of a tournament, if the board comes out 789TQ with a flush draw and you stack off with AA then you deserve to.

Yes some people will not stop calling with their draws, but that's GREAT for us if we bet an amount that gives them the incorrect odds to do so.

It's as bad as saying, lets open jam KK cos I'm scared someone will call with A2 and hit an A. You HAVE to think long term and this kinda post is a sign that you're not.

profman15

Well Larry...objective acheived...it has brought about discussion! However you may see it getting busted simply because people will call all-ins with it more and some players will 'fall in love with aces'. It is still the stronest hand though as you well know, i suspect.....

sillymunch

in my experience, A A is the kind of hand, you either win a small pot, or lose a big one, the reason behind this is, preflop you have raised, and implied odds tell you, you can call with speculative hands, in sky poker a lot of inexperienced players do this unknowingly and very badly, they call with suited cards to see a flop, they will then chase all the way cus they dont know how to let go of draws, so you win a small pot if your opponent doesnt get any part of the flop, you lose a big pot because the few times they do hit big (2 pair or better) then your going to lose, so the trick to playing with the rockets is to raise it up, but dont raise it up too much, (people will disagree with this, but 3-4x the Big Blind is perfectly fine when you are so deep) when you see the flop, think how many hands can beat you, if you have A A and the flop comes K 10 x with 2 diamonds, then there are multiple scenarios, somebody could be drawing to the flush, the straight, or already have 2 pair with hands like K 10, so either slow down or go ultra attacking, if you go ultra attacking you will beat the bad players calling with KQ, but more often then not you are behind if they wont let it go on that board so i would slow down.

seppe

The morale of larrys story is, if larry raises everybody has to fold until they blind out & larry lifts the trophy at the end lol.

Heard some crazy stuff larry but this is brill & tops everything

larry1959

In Response to Re: Why do AA pockets get busted more often in early stages of tournies??????:

The morale of larrys story is, if larry raises everybody has to fold until they blind out & larry lifts the trophy at the end lol. Heard some crazy stuff larry but this is brill & tops everything
Posted by seppe

Maybe a little crazy... but thats me..always looking at the controversial side of the game....people get involved with the post because it goes against...shall we say the ''ABC of poker play''.... there will be plenty more controvercial post in the future... it's just taking a different veiw point from the norm and getting people thinking... which isn't a bad thing.....is it????