Can someone please explain this call to me?

mrdavies

shaun09	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£71.96
mrdavies	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£31.75
	Your hole cards	8 8
lovejunky	Fold
URDADDY	Raise		£2.00	£2.75	£96.05
60nine60	Call		£2.00	£4.75	£42.07
x	Raise		£8.00	£12.75	£70.00
shaun09	Fold
mrdavies	All-in		£31.75	£44.50	£0.00
URDADDY	Fold
60nine60	Fold
x	Call		£24.25	£68.75	£45.75
mrdavies	Show	8 8
x	Show	8 9
Flop
		3 6 9
Turn
		9
River
		3
x	Win	Full House, 9s and 3s	£66.95

H e was making a blatant squeeze play, the guy that opened was opening with junk all the time so i knew he werent guna call the shuve.

How on earth can he call with 8 9, and then good old Sky turns over running 9's!?

JPW33

Wow, your play of going all in after 2 raises with a pair of 8's is very loose in my humble opinion however so is his call, then just down to the cards and you got unlucky.

mrdavies

Yeah it is loose, but i think it is uncall able especially with the images portayed by the other players, just think it s a shocking call and they hit in this situation all too frequently!

bearlyther

In Response to Re: Can someone please explain this call to me?:

Yeah it is loose, but i think it is uncall able especially with the images portayed by the other players, just think it s a shocking call and they hit in this situation all too frequently!
Posted by mrdavies

This is going to be called 100% of the time here you have no fold equity given the action.  It doesnt matter that he made a bad call and won your jam is arguably worse than his call 8s are never going to be in good shape in this spot. You need to reliase that this is not a bad beat but a spot you shouldnt be involved in.  A 4x raise from utg+1 a flat call then a 3 bet to £8 never ever a good spot to jam 8s.

mrdavies

yeah but bearly it obviously was a good spot and i read the situation right and my notes on the table was right because i got it in agasint 8 9 !? Isnt that the kinda of call you want?

I honestly cannot see how you can say my jam is worse than his call, the worst situation i put myself in was a flip agasint AK AQ No one else represented any of that. and with my stack I was willing to flip.

Dont agree with you/

bearlyther

Thats because your being results orientated here play this hand like this 1000 times and i guarantee you 8s will be crushed.  And no you will be in a much worse situation than a flip against ak here almost every time.

mrdavies

Yeah but your opinion is based on overall results i.e a 1000 hands. I am talking about this hand, If we talk about the current hand and the way i percieved the hand as to what the other players had and were trying to represent I think its a good shuve that should have been folded by all players, just a shocking call on the button.

Jeronimo7

Sounds like you made what some would describe as a loose jam because of your read on the table dynamic and the Villian. It would also appear that you were bang on correct as the guy had rags. I think you read the situation right, got it in massively ahead and got called by a fishy donk and got very unlucky.

mrdavies

In Response to Re: Can someone please explain this call to me?:

Sounds like you made what some would describe as a loose jam because of your read on the table dynamic and the Villian. It would also appear that you were bang on correct as the guy had rags. I think you read the situation right, got it in massively ahead and got called by a fishy donk and got very unlucky.
Posted by Jeronimo7

Finally.. my thoughts exactly! Just find it hard to deal with this type of beat, seems so unfair lol, Sky almost reward the bad calls.

bearlyther

Mental jam ask any poker coach or pro and i guarantee not 1 of them will say this is a good spot to jam.

mrdavies

I just cant see how on earth you can say the jam is better than the call!?!

and i agree that its not the best spot to Jam but in the circumstances it was and that was proved when the cards were flipped over.

bearlyther

Simple your jam is worse than his call as you have no fold equity given the action.  And no it wasnt when proved when cards turned over as thats results orientated.

loololollo

why you jammin an all in after a 3 bet ? he prob put you on a low PP, would you jam that with pocket A/K or 4 bet it?

mrdavies

Oh right now youve put it so 'simply' I understands i do.

BorinLoner

MrDavies, you don't seem to acknowledge the possibility that your opponent may be aware of what you're doing. Perhaps your opponent knows that you're capable of seeing his 3-bet as a squeeze and then restealing. If your range for doing that includes 88 then presumably it also includes 77 and lower, Ax, perhaps Kx or suited connectors. Against that range and with pot odds of 35% it's not that terrible a call. I'm not saying that it's brilliant because it's always going to be a -EV call, but it's not dreadful.

You also have to acknowledge that your opponent will not want to be seen to 3-bet and then fold when given such great pot-odds or he'll open himself up to being run-over by the table. If he's doing that, he'll basically have to lock-up in future and only 3-bet premium hands and that's not necessarily something he'll want to do. If you were each playing 200BB deep then he would have to fold. With just 80BB, you really don't have enough to let him relinquish his equity in the hand. If he perceived you to be a massive nit that only does this with AA or KK, then he should fold. Otherwise his call is almost inevitable.

You also need to think about your assertion that because he had 89 this time, your play was correct. You are obviously right that his range for 3-betting here was quite wide but you have to think about how your hand plays against that entire range. Yes it's a favourite the times he has 89 or lower but the rest of the time he's going to have two overcards - which is just 9T or better, after all - or overpairs. So against his range, occasionally you're a 70% favourite but more often you're flipping or are a 80% dog. You have to think it's unlikely that he tries this squeeze with 77 or lower pairs because that would be sacrificing the implied odds of set-mining and playing the hand in position. Squeezing with 77 would be turning a hand with good implied value into a bluff.

Basically I agree with bearlyther. You shouldn't expect a fold here ever with the odds you're offering and this will be a losing play in the long-run.

BorinLoner

Try re-posting this in the clinic. I don't think many of the wiser heads come down BBV way very often. I certainly don't and there are far wiser heads than mine. lol

mrdavies

excellent response, and what I was looking for basically from the start. You have opened my eyes to the hand, thank you and well explained.

Still disagree with BT though

devonfish5

hi mrdavies,
i've only recently started playing cash seriously anyway,and am in no position to offer any decent advice on this hand.
i would say though it looks like a loose call from the 89 but then also going all-in for £30+ with 88 could be seen as loose also by some.i certainly wouldn't be making that play,but then again i guess i'm not playing this level or rolled for ir either.
i'm guessing that you must be and were happy to go all-in with the 88,and were expecting everyone to fold.
as it's turned out here i think you were putting it mildly very hard done by,and rightly so upset by how it turned out.
everyone talks about and not just about this hand,but many i've also posted up myself,about how it would play out over 1000 times or so.like you say you and myself too i guess,are only interested in the particular hand this one time and not the 999 other times.

fact is you made the play he made the call thats it.
any lesson learnt here?
would you make the same play again?
if the answer is no...then you have learnt from it.
if the answer is yes...you take whatever comes,i guess.

borinloner has made some very good points i feel,as he did with an AA issue i've recently had,.
isn't it nice when someone takes the time and effort to explain something to us,in a way that we can understand and then fully appreciate and hopefully learn from for the future.

well said borinloner.

The_Don90

Reading this hand and comments i dont feel as qualified as others but theres one comment that seems to have been missed by others

I honestly cannot see how you can say my jam is worse than his call, the worst situation i put myself in was a flip agasint AK AQ No one else represented any of that. and with my stack I was willing to flip.
Posted by mrdavies

Looking at the hand. You may say This was a squeeze play, but most players will play AA/KK/AQ/AK the exact same way they would when they squeeze. Just with a raise and a call it looks more like a squeeze. That doesn't mean it always is. 

I've literally played on full ring tables where ive seen a UTG raise 5 callers, a raise then a shove because someone thinks the 3bet is a squeeze. They have Aces. That player is often capable of sqeezing. Their allowed to have hands.