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Hand advice pls
loosecamel
Member Posts: 152
in Poker Chat
vs 2 unknowns
I'm guessing a lot of people will say shove pre here, but as played do we call here? I know i'm pretty much always behind when 3rd player shoves, but getting like 4:1 and a bounty so just sigh called. Obviously dead to 910 and sets, felt at the time I was ahead of first player so more a question if second has enough random 10J/K10 that punt it in too.
Is this standard or am I setting fire to £££?
Thanks in advance
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| DREAMHUNTE | Small blind | 100.00 | 100.00 | 6705.00 | |
| Aido_dom | Big blind | 200.00 | 300.00 | 24482.50 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| loosecamel | Raise | 400.00 | 700.00 | 3055.00 | |
| Arrogant | Fold | ||||
| chillidamo | Call | 400.00 | 1100.00 | 6047.50 | |
| chippsrus | Call | 400.00 | 1500.00 | 2815.00 | |
| DREAMHUNTE | Fold | ||||
| Aido_dom | Call | 200.00 | 1700.00 | 24282.50 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| Aido_dom | Check | ||||
| loosecamel | Bet | 850.00 | 2550.00 | 2205.00 | |
| chillidamo | Raise | 4250.00 | 6800.00 | 1797.50 | |
| chippsrus | All-in | 2815.00 | 9615.00 | 0.00 | |
| Aido_dom | Fold | ||||
| loosecamel | All-in | 2205.00 | 11820.00 | 0.00 | |
| chillidamo | Unmatched bet | 1195.00 | 10625.00 | 2992.50 | |
| loosecamel | Show |
| |||
| chillidamo | Show |
| |||
| chippsrus | Show |
| |||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| chippsrus | Win | Two Pairs, Queens and Jacks | 10145.00 | 10145.00 | |
| loosecamel | Win | Pair of Queens | 480.00 | 480.00 | |
Is this standard or am I setting fire to £££?
Thanks in advance
Comments
Here's my 2 cents worth.
Pre flop is fine. Although you can shove 17BB's (Sorry mis-read stack sizes originally thought it was 33 BB's eff)
Raising to induce a shove with worse against aggressive opponents is fine imo, but the GTO guys would probably just shove, especially if oppo's are "STICKY" calling types.
I like 440 rather than 400, but that's just me. no big deal either way as long as your raise sizing is consistent.
The Cbet is fine, possibly slightly smaller, but then you probably have to fold imo as it was a rainbow flop, so no flush draws and, as such, one of them almost certainly has a made hand that beats you.
If you are really lucky one has KQ and the other KT or QT, but most the time you are beat by at least one of them.
Even if you did manage to hit an Ace or Queen on the turn/river, you may still not be good. So if beat, you are drawing very thin.
Clearly in this case the Ace would have been good but a Queen not, it would be very rare for both the Queen and Ace to be good.
Also when posting these you may get less "biased" responses if you just post the hand up the the "decision point" as below, although formatting lost.
This way people aren't results orientated.
Hope this helps.
P.S. I mis-read your stack size with the original reply. I still feel the fold is best, but understand the call with your stack. I originally thought it was 32BB's eff, (which would make the fold to the flop re-raise easy) but it's just 17 BB's. Sky hand histories are a pain. @NOSTRI any luck with a visual re-player format, or is that put on hold?
Appreciate it's probably a lot of work.
Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance
DREAMHUNTE Small blind 100.00 100.00 6705.00
Aido_dom Big blind 200.00 300.00 24482.50
Your hole cards
AQ
loosecamel Raise 400.00 700.00 3055.00
Arrogant Fold
chillidamo Call 400.00 1100.00 6047.50
chippsrus Call 400.00 1500.00 2815.00
DREAMHUNTE Fold
Aido_dom Call 200.00 1700.00 24282.50
Flop
J8Q
Aido_dom Check
loosecamel Bet 850.00 2550.00 2205.00
chillidamo Raise 4250.00 6800.00 1797.50
chippsrus All-in 2815.00 9615.00 0.00
Aido_dom Fold
loosecamel
You have given me the idea to add an option to hide the outcome of the hand though.
Also agree with not posting the result of the hand - will make sure to do that next time.
I guess as played I was the one being too sticky, will try and learn from this.
When you go 4 way to the flop, I think checking this hand is the best play. There are plenty of hands you are losing to (straights, sets, two pairs), and with more players in this is much more likely. I think checking entire range in this scenario is probably best.
Betting isn't that bad though, your hand can get a lot of value from worse top pairs, pair+SD type hands and can shove a lot of safe looking turns for value. Betting smaller would also be better
After you bet and get a shove and a call, I think you have to fold. Not great as you have put a big amount of your stack in already, but you're only ahead if your opponents both have put in pair+SD and worse top pairs.
And to further this, a question for you both @destinycod @StayOrGo, how would our play change if the scenario was slightly different;
a) The board comes 8JddQ, does a flush draw makes us want to ultimately get it in on the flop any more than a rainbow board? And should we still check range?
b) If effective stacks were 25bb or even 40bb?
I think at 40bb I would be more inclined to bet decide than 25bb or when 4 way should we be playing a checking dominated strategy that is indifferent to effective stacks.
Thanks in advance guys
Cbet size would be fine slightly smaller as you still set up on the turn if there was only 1 caller, but again not too important. I think the call/fold decision a) 8JQddx flop i think is actually more straightforward cbet/call off vs 2 opponents. Too many draws or pairs +draws to consider folding, especially if its not deep into the tournament and preflop ranges seem fairly wide.
b) I actually think checking is alright as you get deeper, multiway can be pretty dicey and i think it would be an overplay to go for more than 2 streets with top top. Plus you're not really looking to play for stacks once 30bb+. Then you can bet brick turns and rivers pretty comfortably depending on the actions behind. Since multiway you're gonna want to check a large part of your range anyway, so starting with a check with A Q at some frequency at least can be decent.
Having said that, if its 3 unknowns and they seem sticky/fish type, i'd probably just bet the flop anyway and go from there, maybe making a nitty fold vs a call and a raise on the flop even on only 25bb, and almost certainly by the turn if vill barrelled >half, as it's hard to imagine any bluffs in this spot.
Then barrel the turn for value on brick turns vs no aggression and just check the river unless improved to 2pair+
Interested to see other peoples thoughts on that b) scenario
I haven't posted before but looking to become semi active in these kinda posts to try and improve with others, hope my comment isn't too waffley
@Super_Oli
At last, great to see you here on the Forum Mr Oli, & congrats on your fine MTT record, you seem to feature most days in the Results Thread.
So this hand was 5 minutes into the SPT Semi, so tiny Blinds, and not a good time to be going Busto.........
.......but any help would be much appreciated
I decided in the end Melty had either flopped the Flush (probably.... I think), or a Queen and a biggish Heart, so thought the best option was to FOLD, but being in position, should I have risked 600 chips to see the River?
Looks fine as played.
Feels tight but maybe an argument for folding the flop with it being a sat?
Without the Kh your hand has nowhere to go and you're only gonna face more bets on the turn and river.
Would possibly Cbet a little less but other than that it's all gravy.
risking 600 chips into 1425 to see if K or Q drops on River, and then Andy @chicknMelt might have had a Q anyway....... If it had been against MisterPJ I would have played it, 'coz you just know the Kh would have dropped