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What would you do here?

EnutEnut Member Posts: 2,441
edited November 2020 in Poker Chat
Mid stages of a £20 MTT, not near the money yet, what would you do here? All/any opinions welcome.

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
RUTSTER19Small blind200.00200.0014682.50
chicknMeltBig blind400.00600.0019755.00
Your hole cards
  • Q
  • J
ozzieowenFold
blondie505Fold
Dlow21Fold
EnutRaise800.001400.0010360.00
RUTSTER19Fold
chicknMeltCall400.001800.0019355.00
Flop
  • 2
  • K
  • 9
chicknMeltCheck
EnutBet800.002600.009560.00
chicknMeltRaise2600.005200.0016755.00

Comments

  • MISTY4MEMISTY4ME Member Posts: 3,715
    I'm no expert but I'd defo be calling for 1800 chips, and then seeing what the Turn is and re-evaluating especially as you have position........

    Hopefully Andy @chicknMelt and some of the other guys will help you (us all) more, especially if Melty tells you what he had :)
  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 2,441
    MISTY4ME said:

    I'm no expert but I'd defo be calling for 1800 chips, and then seeing what the Turn is and re-evaluating especially as you have position........

    Hopefully Andy @chicknMelt and some of the other guys will help you (us all) more, especially if Melty tells you what he had :)

    Ah well, on the grounds that no one replied I'm guessing it's a standard call and reassess, I stupidly reraised all in and melty turned over a set of 2's, I turned the nut straight, but then, as is often the way, the board paired on the river and I was out.

    Had virtually the same set up again later in the session and made the same mistake, got it all in with nut flush draw (that time) and straight draw, hit the turn to go miles ahead and then the board paired on the river again.

    I'm guessing the way forward is to call and reassess.
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 7,679
    edited November 2020
    Enut said:

    MISTY4ME said:

    I'm no expert but I'd defo be calling for 1800 chips, and then seeing what the Turn is and re-evaluating especially as you have position........

    Hopefully Andy @chicknMelt and some of the other guys will help you (us all) more, especially if Melty tells you what he had :)

    Ah well, on the grounds that no one replied I'm guessing it's a standard call and reassess, I stupidly reraised all in and melty turned over a set of 2's, I turned the nut straight, but then, as is often the way, the board paired on the river and I was out.

    Had virtually the same set up again later in the session and made the same mistake, got it all in with nut flush draw (that time) and straight draw, hit the turn to go miles ahead and then the board paired on the river again.

    I'm guessing the way forward is to call and reassess.
    Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not?
    Why would the river card going against you determine the best way to play hands?

    You've got good equity against almost any range, and you only have 25bb behind and no ICM issues, that I think getting it in here on the flop to maximise your equity is pretty standard.

    You're gonna run into a set or the A high flush draw occasionally, that's just poker. A combo draw vs a set when playing relatively short stacked is gonna result in both parties getting their chips in.

    If you were deeper, or on/near the bubble, or it was a sat then yeah it could play out differently.

    I'm not entirely sure what there is to re-evaluate or reassess on the turn? You've raised QJs and got about the best flop possible for your hand and you're getting action; in it goes and realise your equity.

  • Super_OliSuper_Oli Member Posts: 15
    @Enut Flop can go both ways, calling and reassessing perfectly reasonable option here, but re raising all in on the flop when you only start the hand with 25bb's is also perfectly reasonable and definitely not a mistake when you have so much equity, and is probably better if you think villain is x/raising the flop too much (especially considering your c bet is on the smaller side).
    I'd probably lean towards call here since you can sometimes be in bad shape vs nut flush draws if your jam is called (A 9clubs for instance), this way we also keep in some other bluffs from vill, such as Q J or J Tspades, and could then choose to raise or call certain turns leveraging our position to our advantage going forward.

    I imagine most people don't check the forum every day hence why some others had not replied, I definitely don't!

    Hope this helps.
  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,758
    I'd prefer calling myself, chickenmelt knows that flop hits your range well, If he was gonna have a X/R/F range he'll have notes you are cbetting wide and have weaker value hands.
    Ask yourself the question what are you expecting him to fold?
    All I see fold are hands already worse than yours unless you can see chicken melt X/R with his Ax without flush draw, 2x and 9x.

    If you had JTs or it Qx flush with a 8 or lower then I'm jamming because chicken melt will have more GS and 1 less Axs therefore your fold equity increases and you are getting worse to fold.
  • HENDRIK62HENDRIK62 Member Posts: 2,597
    craigcu12 said:

    I'd prefer calling myself, chickenmelt knows that flop hits your range well, If he was gonna have a X/R/F range he'll have notes you are cbetting wide and have weaker value hands.
    Ask yourself the question what are you expecting him to fold?
    All I see fold are hands already worse than yours unless you can see chicken melt X/R with his Ax without flush draw, 2x and 9x.

    If you had JTs or it Qx flush with a 8 or lower then I'm jamming because chicken melt will have more GS and 1 less Axs therefore your fold equity increases and you are getting worse to fold.


    Surely the point is not to get him to fold but as Hhy has said realising your equity here Oli makes the point of running into the ace flush draw, but given how cra p I am at playing streets I shove flop almost 100%


  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 2,441
    Thanks for your reply guys, I genuinely didn't mean to come across as snotty because not many had replied.

    It's a position that, at the moment, I seem to either lose the maximum (by going all in, getting called and then not getting a favorable run out) or or win the minimum (by calling, hitting and then getting no further action). This is why i posted it really. If only there was a way of losing the minimum or winning the max eh?
  • MISTY4MEMISTY4ME Member Posts: 3,715
    edited November 2020
    Enut said:

    Thanks for your reply guys, I genuinely didn't mean to come across as snotty because not many had replied.

    It's a position that, at the moment, I seem to either lose the maximum (by going all in, getting called and then not getting a favorable run out) or or win the minimum (by calling, hitting and then getting no further action). This is why i posted it really. If only there was a way of losing the minimum or winning the max eh?

    I know Tournament Strategy is the obvious place to post hands for advice, but it would get more views, and hopefully more help, if posted in Poker Chat..... hope this helps for future, because it was an interesting dilemma .....and thanks Guys for your advice

    GOOD LUCK :)
  • DoooobsDoooobs Member Posts: 138
    I think you played it fine too.

    He should be 3 betting quite a bit more than flopped sets when you are both in the blinds and he must raise fold enough other hands we flip with? It feels like there aren't even many sets in his range, as I think people are likely to raise more with pairs than just call when blind vs blind.

    Speaking personally, raise calling here and having to fold the turn after losing a chunk of my chips would probably make me more likely to tilt than what has happened here.
  • EnutEnut Member Posts: 2,441
    Thanks @Doooobs, yes I think he reraises 9s and Ks pre, so could exclude those. My logic was exactly the same, if I call, miss and have to fold the turn I'm not happy.
  • hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 7,679
    edited November 2020
    Enut said:

    Thanks @Doooobs, yes I think he reraises 9s and Ks pre, so could exclude those. My logic was exactly the same, if I call, miss and have to fold the turn I'm not happy.

    I think if you're gonna go with the hand, and on that flop it's highly likely, then you wanna maximise your equity and ensure you get to see both the turn and the river (or no more cards if he folds)

    People saying to call and re-assess on turn, I'm not entirely sure why. You might do that if you had AA/AK/KQ type made hands, but even though you have a monster combo draw you still only Q high and almost no showdown value. Whilst flatting might keep in some of Melts semi bluffs, we also only have a semi bluff. In that instance the first to go for the jugular will often take the pot. It's so meh when the turn bricks and you get put all in, or effectively all in.

    I think if this is a spot you don't want to pile your chips in, then you should consider checking back the flop and exercising pot control.
    In reality, given the lack of stack depth and the 2 hands involved, this was all going in on the flop.
  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,758
    edited December 2020

    Enut said:

    Thanks @Doooobs, yes I think he reraises 9s and Ks pre, so could exclude those. My logic was exactly the same, if I call, miss and have to fold the turn I'm not happy.

    I think if you're gonna go with the hand, and on that flop it's highly likely, then you wanna maximise your equity and ensure you get to see both the turn and the river (or no more cards if he folds)

    People saying to call and re-assess on turn, I'm not entirely sure why. You might do that if you had AA/AK/KQ type made hands, but even though you have a monster combo draw you still only Q high and almost no showdown value. Whilst flatting might keep in some of Melts semi bluffs, we also only have a semi bluff. In that instance the first to go for the jugular will often take the pot. It's so meh when the turn bricks and you get put all in, or effectively all in.

    I think if this is a spot you don't want to pile your chips in, then you should consider checking back the flop and exercising pot control.
    In reality, given the lack of stack depth and the 2 hands involved, this was all going in on the flop.
    It'd put it down to stacksizes, I myself didn't realize stack sizes were so small, I've ran it on GTO looking at a stack size of 27BB deep and your QJ QT 9x with flush draw even some AA and AK are getting shoved. The reason here is villian should X/R his weaker flush draws strong Kx combos and he will have a couple of bluffs, when you get it AI he is still suppose to call his weaker flush draws and Kx combos and will fold some better therefore although you losing maximum value from the strength you are gonna obtain maximum value from worse and will definately gain maximum value from his better hands when you improve

    At 40BB deep then it becomes a call the difference here is villian will be able to RRAI his nutted value combos allowing him to extract maximum value from your draws, he will not be happy stacking off the weaker draws and it will prevent him making mistakes on later street. You plan hear is call most your range on flop and then evaluate whether or not to call or raise AI on turn depending whether or not you think villian will bluff river.
  • chappo100chappo100 Member Posts: 116
    I'd get it all in on the flop with stack size for sure, suprised QJs becomes a call rather than shoving over x/r at 40bb
  • FeelGroggyFeelGroggy Member Posts: 771
    edited December 2020
    I would call flop. I think this is a massively underbluffed spot. Realistically we are going to shove here and get called by nut flush draws and 2 pair+, maybe KQ so we just get it in bad a bunch without tons of fold equity. We also block some of his only possible bluff raises pretty hard which are gonna he gutshot with one club hands (Some regs never even bluff those) and we beat those anyway. if we miss the turn and face a shove it's a simple fold. If we hit i think we are going to end up stacking his 2pairs and better super often.
  • madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,040
    Enut said:

    MISTY4ME said:

    I'm no expert but I'd defo be calling for 1800 chips, and then seeing what the Turn is and re-evaluating especially as you have position........

    Hopefully Andy @chicknMelt and some of the other guys will help you (us all) more, especially if Melty tells you what he had :)

    Ah well, on the grounds that no one replied I'm guessing it's a standard call and reassess, I stupidly reraised all in and melty turned over a set of 2's, I turned the nut straight, but then, as is often the way, the board paired on the river and I was out.

    Had virtually the same set up again later in the session and made the same mistake, got it all in with nut flush draw (that time) and straight draw, hit the turn to go miles ahead and then the board paired on the river again.

    I'm guessing the way forward is to call and reassess.
    You need to apply to Tikay for one of those RNG buttons to be installed in your house ;)
  • TedsonTedson Member Posts: 55
    I concur with Groggy. People won't XR as a bluff too often here, because they're just going to get called too often on this board and then be in a grim spot on the turn. Would prefer to shove a nut flush draw or 9x FD, then we can get it in ahead against other FDs.

    But never that bad to shove a hand with so much equity on the flop. It does suck if we call and he jams a brick turn.
  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,758
    I'm with groggy. I said in my first post I would just call just this flop and it was knowing people are not X/R these flops as a bluff. In GTO+ and solver ranges you are suppose to X/R Ax combos with a club but people will not do this and as played we can easily fold the turn because we know a villian who does X/R flop as a bluff will not barrell turn.
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