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UKOPS 03 £20,000 Bounty Hunter - was I right to fold river?

AerionzAerionz Member Posts: 84
edited December 2020 in Poker Chat
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
mcg899Small blind20.0020.0010475.00
Itsover4uBig blind40.0060.0010035.00
Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
Jay119Fold
AerionzRaise120.00180.009880.00
FuzzyDareCall120.00300.0010772.50
fishhhhhFold
mcg899Fold
Itsover4uFold
Flop
  • J
  • 8
  • 10
AerionzCheck
FuzzyDareBet200.00500.0010572.50
AerionzCall200.00700.009680.00
Turn
  • J
AerionzCheck
FuzzyDareBet525.001225.0010047.50
AerionzCall525.001750.009155.00
River
  • 3
AerionzCheck
FuzzyDareBet1312.503062.508735.00
AerionzFold
FuzzyDareMuck
FuzzyDareWin1750.0010485.00
FuzzyDareReturn1312.500.0011797.50
Yes I could bet flop but decided not to this time. I didn't like that board very much.

On the turn, I already feel bad about calling. 3 jacks now beats me. On the river the flush gets there, if I wasn't already beat by a straight or full house. I can't think of many bluffs he could have and can't think of any value hands that I beat. Was the fold ok?

Comments

  • PBKRPBKR Member Posts: 93
    Question for you - why did you choose to check the flop? Blind v Blind you have a very strong hand here, and a c bet (1/2 - 2/3 pot) allows you to build a better idea of their range as the hand goes on - and they may even just fold the flop!
    As played, after you check, you put yourself in a difficult position come the river. I'm always calling flop and turn, his sizing on the river does slightly polarize him to jack, flush or bluff (e.g KQ, 10 9, 8 9)-
    One thing of note - mr fuzzy is a good player, and as you have a "capped" range here (you can't have the nuts) he may be turning more hands into bluffs than a less experienced player - i also don't think he would ever expect you to have kings here. Blind v Blind I may be tempted to call - but i think given his sizings, this was probably the right fold.
    Tough spot though, good hand to post! - cbet will have helped you here.
  • AerionzAerionz Member Posts: 84
    edited December 2020
    PBKR said:

    Question for you - why did you choose to check the flop? Blind v Blind you have a very strong hand here, and a c bet (1/2 - 2/3 pot) allows you to build a better idea of their range as the hand goes on - and they may even just fold the flop!
    As played, after you check, you put yourself in a difficult position come the river. I'm always calling flop and turn, his sizing on the river does slightly polarize him to jack, flush or bluff (e.g KQ, 10 9, 8 9)-
    One thing of note - mr fuzzy is a good player, and as you have a "capped" range here (you can't have the nuts) he may be turning more hands into bluffs than a less experienced player - i also don't think he would ever expect you to have kings here. Blind v Blind I may be tempted to call - but i think given his sizings, this was probably the right fold.
    Tough spot though, good hand to post! - cbet will have helped you here.

    thanks but i'm not in the blinds. i'm in middle position and he's in the cut-off. 10 9 and 8 9 are pairs, would he turn those into bluffs? also KQ is a bluff but with my KK, it makes it much less likely he has that.
  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,894
    edited December 2020
    I'm not very happy with my KK at all on this board texture,
    Q what are you gonna do with 2 pair and set on flop, are you gonna X/C any?
    I suggest you do it sometimes, JT and 88 are decent choices.. Keeping some nutted value combos in your X/C range helps to protect your KK

    Also I suggest you cbet a combo like QQ on flop, the idea is QQ is a really vunerable over pair QQ with club is a great choice to knowing their is not gonna be as many scare cards and is ahead of Jx.

    When you put it all together you can now fold KK on a turn card like that turn no problem because it's gonna be sitting right at the very bottom of your value range, if he's bluffing good for him you don't mind because you have lots of better value combos.

    MAking yourself capped and having plenty of OP and lack of nutted hands if I'm sitting in IP with T9 then I will be bluffing because I myself know that board texture is really scary, I have lots of nutted hands whilst villian has a really capped range of OP which he isn't happy to call down especially not when scare cards like J, club Q 9 or 7 come.
  • PBKRPBKR Member Posts: 93
    @Aerionz You're right i was reading this one eye opened obviously :tired_face:

    I do think he CAN turn those into bluffs yes - not all the time, but where he has a range advantage on that board some players may be more inclined to go for it.

    But as I said - i think this was the right fold, not sure i could let it go myself until the river though!
  • miniman88miniman88 Member Posts: 132
    craigcu12 said:

    I'm not very happy with my KK at all on this board texture,
    Q what are you gonna do with 2 pair and set on flop, are you gonna X/C any?
    I suggest you do it sometimes, JT and 88 are decent choices.. Keeping some nutted value combos in your X/C range helps to protect your KK

    Also I suggest you cbet a combo like QQ on flop, the idea is QQ is a really vunerable over pair QQ with club is a great choice to knowing their is not gonna be as many scare cards and is ahead of Jx.

    When you put it all together you can now fold KK on a turn card like that turn no problem because it's gonna be sitting right at the very bottom of your value range, if he's bluffing good for him you don't mind because you have lots of better value combos.

    MAking yourself capped and having plenty of OP and lack of nutted hands if I'm sitting in IP with T9 then I will be bluffing because I myself know that board texture is really scary, I have lots of nutted hands whilst villian has a really capped range of OP which he isn't happy to call down especially not when scare cards like J, club Q 9 or 7 come.

    Check folding KK on the turn, especially after under repping our hand and holding no club in our hand, is not an option.

  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,894
    edited December 2020
    miniman88 said:

    craigcu12 said:

    I'm not very happy with my KK at all on this board texture,
    Q what are you gonna do with 2 pair and set on flop, are you gonna X/C any?
    I suggest you do it sometimes, JT and 88 are decent choices.. Keeping some nutted value combos in your X/C range helps to protect your KK

    Also I suggest you cbet a combo like QQ on flop, the idea is QQ is a really vunerable over pair QQ with club is a great choice to knowing their is not gonna be as many scare cards and is ahead of Jx.

    When you put it all together you can now fold KK on a turn card like that turn no problem because it's gonna be sitting right at the very bottom of your value range, if he's bluffing good for him you don't mind because you have lots of better value combos.

    MAking yourself capped and having plenty of OP and lack of nutted hands if I'm sitting in IP with T9 then I will be bluffing because I myself know that board texture is really scary, I have lots of nutted hands whilst villian has a really capped range of OP which he isn't happy to call down especially not when scare cards like J, club Q 9 or 7 come.

    Check folding KK on the turn, especially after under repping our hand and holding no club in our hand, is not an option.

    Just looked at GTO and your right I do over fold my KK on turn which did suprise me.
    What's clear we are not cbetting much nor are we X/R much
    This is our theory defensive range on flop blue X/R red X/F green X/C


    on turn our X/C range does still have KK and we X/F those on river.
    This is our theory X/C range on turn

    The high card calls are all FD
  • DoooobsDoooobs Member Posts: 190
    Hi Craig, have you set that to only check the flop or am I misreading it? It seems strange that we raise pre and then cbet none of our range on the flop.
  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,894
    edited December 2020
    Doooobs said:

    Hi Craig, have you set that to only check the flop or am I misreading it? It seems strange that we raise pre and then cbet none of our range on the flop.

    I didn't have it set to 100% but it does look like I have because GTO itself was gonna cbet a small percentage of most hands.

    this is the cbet and X range.

    Looking at it myself I would say this is flop is one we can X 100% of our range depending how aggressive we think villian is. ONe thing's for sure no villian is gonna stab his range the way GTO does. for starters GTO has villian stabbing small PP with a club IP but we ourselves know villians won't do that, also GTO has villian X back some sets himself but we see our villian probe most sets on flop

    Getting a perfect cbet and X range on this flop will be super hard, some strength we should bet and others we shouldn't what's most important is we do not make many cbets on this flop OOP and must keep some nutted value in our checking range.
  • DoooobsDoooobs Member Posts: 190
    Thanks Craig, that is really interesting. I would naturally bet KK here to avoid the World of hurt later, but maybe I should start checking nearly everything.
  • Jac35Jac35 Member Posts: 6,140
    Always a pleasure having you at the tables

    Maybe you could have folded pre here instead 🤭

    Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance
    Jac35 Small blind 75.00 75.00 2840.00
    danielld9 Big blind 150.00 225.00 1575.00
    Your hole cards
    K
    K

    JingleMa Fold
    Web071 Fold
    Aerionz All-in 1580.00 1805.00 0.00
    Jac35 Call 1505.00 3310.00 1335.00
    danielld9 Fold
    Jac35 Show
    K
    K
    Aerionz Show
    A
    Q
    Flop

    4
    3
    Q

    Turn

    7

    River

    3

    Jac35 Win Two Pairs, Kings and 3s 3310.00 4645.00


    I like how you took it so well though


    erionz: what a joke
    00:19Aerionz: first time i shove
    Aerionz: i run into kk
    Jac35: it happens
    Jac35: ul
    Aerionz: i hope u lose anyway
    Jac35: lol
  • AerionzAerionz Member Posts: 84
    edited December 2020
    Jac35 said:

    Always a pleasure having you at the tables

    Maybe you could have folded pre here instead 🤭

    Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance
    Jac35 Small blind 75.00 75.00 2840.00
    danielld9 Big blind 150.00 225.00 1575.00
    Your hole cards
    K
    K

    JingleMa Fold
    Web071 Fold
    Aerionz All-in 1580.00 1805.00 0.00
    Jac35 Call 1505.00 3310.00 1335.00
    danielld9 Fold
    Jac35 Show
    K
    K
    Aerionz Show
    A
    Q
    Flop

    4
    3
    Q

    Turn

    7

    River

    3

    Jac35 Win Two Pairs, Kings and 3s 3310.00 4645.00


    I like how you took it so well though


    erionz: what a joke
    00:19Aerionz: first time i shove
    Aerionz: i run into kk
    Jac35: it happens
    Jac35: ul
    Aerionz: i hope u lose anyway
    Jac35: lol

    I was pretty tilted after that hand because I kept running into bigger hands for like 15 minutes straight. Didn't mean it obviously, no hard feelings! :P Although not sure this is the right place to post this! Maybe BBV?
  • AerionzAerionz Member Posts: 84
    edited December 2020
    craigcu12 said:

    I'm not very happy with my KK at all on this board texture,
    Q what are you gonna do with 2 pair and set on flop, are you gonna X/C any?
    I suggest you do it sometimes, JT and 88 are decent choices.. Keeping some nutted value combos in your X/C range helps to protect your KK

    Also I suggest you cbet a combo like QQ on flop, the idea is QQ is a really vunerable over pair QQ with club is a great choice to knowing their is not gonna be as many scare cards and is ahead of Jx.

    When you put it all together you can now fold KK on a turn card like that turn no problem because it's gonna be sitting right at the very bottom of your value range, if he's bluffing good for him you don't mind because you have lots of better value combos.

    MAking yourself capped and having plenty of OP and lack of nutted hands if I'm sitting in IP with T9 then I will be bluffing because I myself know that board texture is really scary, I have lots of nutted hands whilst villian has a really capped range of OP which he isn't happy to call down especially not when scare cards like J, club Q 9 or 7 come.

    I haven't thought about what I would do with those hands. Do you think T9 bluffs river? If he turns pairs into bluffs, should I call? Thank you for the analysis, very helpful!
  • cabbazcabbaz Member Posts: 32
    I don't think T9 is a particularly likely hand given villain's large bet sizing on flop and turn. If that is in their range, then it would definitely be a good bluff combo on river, but not sure it's very likely.

    I think it all depends on how villain constructs their bluffing range on the river. Some weaker players will barrel away with KQ and AQ on this river, even though they are not great bluff combos (blocking your AK, AQ and KQ auto folds). If you think villain is aggro and not thinking on this deep a level, you can maybe find a call because that is a lot of combos. If villain gives those up, it's hard to find a lot of natural bluffs. There is a lot of value he can have, not just flushes, straights and boats, but also a bunch of trips combos.

    Meanwhile, because this is a flop which you should be checking most of the time, your range is nicely protected and you can still have a lot of very strong hands. JT, AJ, KJ, QJ would all take this line. I'd be more tempted to check raise 88 and TT, but you could have slowplayed them sometimes as well.

    Tbh I like your line and think I would probably also find the fold on river. If I had the King of clubs I would be more tempted to call.
  • Jac35Jac35 Member Posts: 6,140
    Aerionz said:

    Jac35 said:

    Always a pleasure having you at the tables

    Maybe you could have folded pre here instead 🤭

    Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance
    Jac35 Small blind 75.00 75.00 2840.00
    danielld9 Big blind 150.00 225.00 1575.00
    Your hole cards
    K
    K

    JingleMa Fold
    Web071 Fold
    Aerionz All-in 1580.00 1805.00 0.00
    Jac35 Call 1505.00 3310.00 1335.00
    danielld9 Fold
    Jac35 Show
    K
    K
    Aerionz Show
    A
    Q
    Flop

    4
    3
    Q

    Turn

    7

    River

    3

    Jac35 Win Two Pairs, Kings and 3s 3310.00 4645.00


    I like how you took it so well though


    erionz: what a joke
    00:19Aerionz: first time i shove
    Aerionz: i run into kk
    Jac35: it happens
    Jac35: ul
    Aerionz: i hope u lose anyway
    Jac35: lol

    I was pretty tilted after that hand because I kept running into bigger hands for like 15 minutes straight. Didn't mean it obviously, no hard feelings! :P Although not sure this is the right place to post this! Maybe BBV?
    No worries

    I was having a pretty bad night myself so it irritated at the time

    I was also drunk :)

    Gl at the tables
  • AMD68AMD68 Member Posts: 125
    Great responses on here. I love reading how a good player thinks. I'm not sure Aerionz has got the answer yet that they're looking for ie if someone can give @FuzzyDare a nudge, do they remember the hand? Put Aerionz out of their misery, was it a good fold? My nose is bothering me now as well tbf. :smile:
  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,894
    edited December 2020
    Doooobs said:

    Hi Craig, have you set that to only check the flop or am I misreading it? It seems strange that we raise pre and then cbet none of our range on the flop.

    No When I looked GTO would cbet 16% of his range on flop but the range itself is extremely hard to memorize because GTO+ is cbetting
    Aerionz said:

    craigcu12 said:

    I'm not very happy with my KK at all on this board texture,
    Q what are you gonna do with 2 pair and set on flop, are you gonna X/C any?
    I suggest you do it sometimes, JT and 88 are decent choices.. Keeping some nutted value combos in your X/C range helps to protect your KK

    Also I suggest you cbet a combo like QQ on flop, the idea is QQ is a really vunerable over pair QQ with club is a great choice to knowing their is not gonna be as many scare cards and is ahead of Jx.

    When you put it all together you can now fold KK on a turn card like that turn no problem because it's gonna be sitting right at the very bottom of your value range, if he's bluffing good for him you don't mind because you have lots of better value combos.

    Making yourself capped and having plenty of OP and lack of nutted hands if I'm sitting in IP with T9 then I will be bluffing because I myself know that board texture is really scary, I have lots of nutted hands whilst villian has a really capped range of OP which he isn't happy to call down especially not when scare cards like J, club Q 9 or 7 come.

    I haven't thought about what I would do with those hands. Do you think T9 bluffs river? If he turns pairs into bluffs, should I call? Thank you for the analysis, very helpful!
    T9 is certainly not gonna be in their range on this river unless he's over value betting weak hands, a crazy bluffer or someone who knows you call really wide and fold really wide on rivers.

    If anyone is gonna play T9 as a bluff they'd want to go B33%.X.B120% or B33%.X.R . The idea is we fire our first bet to defend ourselves from over cards knowing we have decent equity when called. Then on turn we slow down otherwise OOP would be able to play all his nutted equity as a bluff catch. then on river we will evaluate how well that card favours our range how much thin value we think villian bets and decide from their whether or not we can bluff raise river over bet bluff river or should X for SD

    The overall idea is we deny equity and keep range wide on flop, we punish people who are not gonna play nutted equity strong and on river we do the bluff knowing villian's checking range will be quite wide when called and his river betting range should have more thin value and bluffs allowing us to pull a +EV bluff raise knowing we should still have some nutted equity.

    When he goes big his range is gonna be more polarized being made up of mostly nutted value hands and draws as a bluff Therefore we are gonna call most our hands.

    When the river card completes flush we now know most his bluffing range has improved and he has plenty of value. If we gonna call any OP it would be AA with Ac knowing that blocks combos like AJ and nut flush but it blocks non of his KQ and I imagine he will have X back some FH combos on turn.
  • miniman88miniman88 Member Posts: 132
    Not cbetting is more than fine with how deep you are on such a coordinated board, happy to have KK in there, maybe less vs a fish but vs fuzzy it's fine.

    Honestly though, these hands are so worthless to study, first level of an mtt, there's literally no value in these pots. When studying mtt's you should be focussing on big bounty spots, changing your play on bubbles, icm/ft spots.
  • chappo100chappo100 Member Posts: 116
    i probs cbet 150/200, barrel about half on non J turns prob x/c that turn and x/f river
    v most including randoms. Don't hate 100% check range that one @craigcu12 posted looks decent. If villian is suspectedly flatting wide against us i think cbet line will be higher ev thought.
    @miniman88 what do you do when you're like me and too busto to afford icmizer? we study these spots trololol
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