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Who won what, Sunday 1st August. Major & Minor miracles

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  • DoooobsDoooobs Member Posts: 240
    Tikay10 said:


    @Doooobs

    Returning to our female weight-lifter friend, yes, I suppose weight-lifting is no big deal, but very soon it will be across many other more day-to-day sports, especially in athletics, swimming & the like.

    It's a very awkward thing indeed, balancing the desire for diversity/inclusiveness & so on
    with the views of the other competitors.

    We just got a silver in that weightlifting comp after all that.

    She followed the rules, so doesn't deserve all the hate. I think most of her competitors seemed fine with it, and their views hold more weight than mine or Lozza's. The sport is also separated by weight, so it isn't like she is competing against tiny women either.

    People put up the strawman argument that some man can just say they are a woman, and compete but they can't. There is a time rule, there are testosterone rules and there own federations have to agree. I don't think there will be a huge surge because the barriers are high.

    I think there are shades of grey in a lot of this, as there is some benefit in muscle mass from your birth sex. Some women are born bigger than others, there is the issue with those that are intersex. It isn't black and white, so you just have to sometimes loom at the individual case, and make a judgement. In this case, no harm seems to have been done. If she had been the one 50kg better than the rest then I may think differently.

    My thoughts are should trans people be allowed to take part in sports. The answer must be yes, should they take part in the Olympics? It depends. The Olympic rules seemed to have stopped any massive abuses so far, so I don't see the need for a change yet. This just appears to be the usual suspects whipping up anti-trans hatred for clicks/sales again, and I don't see much real harm done. This isn't the East Germany "women's" team of old or the state sponsored dopers.
  • NChanningNChanning Member Posts: 846
    As in almost everything Doooobs is correct. Would have been a bit sad if he'd come to any other conclusion but knew I could rely on him.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    edited August 2021
    NChanning said:

    As in almost everything Doooobs is correct. Would have been a bit sad if he'd come to any other conclusion but knew I could rely on him.

    This is a difficult question. I agree with pretty much everything Doooobs said, but would like to add a few bits.

    I know some people are aware of this, but I feel I should point out some personal interest in this. My youngest is transgender-started out life as female, and now identifies as male.

    The first point I want to make is that you need to look at this issue by individual sport. The simplest examples are horse racing, 3-day eventing and the like. Those sports are open to anyone of any gender, so it is simply not an issue.

    Then there are sports that have reached a point where transgender/intersex people can genuinely be assessed to compete on a level playing field. An example is weightlifting, and a shining example of the right way forward is that transgender weightlifter, who is both inspirational and aspirational for many.

    Athletics is a far trickier matter. Look at the Court cases involving Castor Semenya. An intersex athlete who was 15-20 metres quicker than any woman over 800 metres. Or the 2 Namibian intersex athletes running the 200 metres in Tokyo. They are unlikely to medal this time, but look likely to win gold in 2024, unless science manages to show an unfair competitive advantage for distances under 400 metres.

    No-one is preventing these people running. It is purely a question of whether it is fair to allow such people to compete against women at certain sports. Rules are being provided to stop these people earning vast amounts of money, taking it from women where (and only where) there is not a level playing field.

    No-one talks about the fact that all female to male transgender people are effectively barred from most competitive sport. Due to the effects of the reverse of the very same coin. Wheel chair athletes do not compete against able-bodied athletes for the very simple reason that they would win almost every event on the track.

    Inclusivity is very important. But so is a level playing field. Should transgender/intersex people be allowed to compete?, As Doooobs rightly said:-"it depends".

  • Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 158,807

    Terrific post @Essexphil

  • MAXALLYMAXALLY Member Posts: 17,483
    Tikay10 said:


    Terrific post @Essexphil

    + 1
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