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Improvement advice?
bandini
Member Posts: 1,802
What's the best way to improve my game?
I've only been playing for about a month. But I'm of the hugely exaggerated opinion that I could be great.
I'm reading Harrington's vol. 1 just now. Taking it in but am miles away from sussing out implied odd et al. Haven't a clue what individual hand odds are either.
Do youse reckon that a mathematical understanding is the foundation? Or the phsycology? Or does it take pure experience?
Even watching Sky must be beneficial despite the obvious lack of intelligence (not to mention looks) of the presenters?
Thoughts?
I've only been playing for about a month. But I'm of the hugely exaggerated opinion that I could be great.
I'm reading Harrington's vol. 1 just now. Taking it in but am miles away from sussing out implied odd et al. Haven't a clue what individual hand odds are either.
Do youse reckon that a mathematical understanding is the foundation? Or the phsycology? Or does it take pure experience?
Even watching Sky must be beneficial despite the obvious lack of intelligence (not to mention looks) of the presenters?
Thoughts?
Comments
My thoughts, probably not best to insult people before or after asking for help
I rest my case.
Although i am not one of the best players on here and it's not likely i ever will be, the things that improved my game more than anything else was patience and a heck of a lot more folding and less card chasing.
Peace
Airwalker.
You can pick up great advice from any of the presenters !!!!! was there any need for the last part of your post ? great way to get help that !!1
monkey123
As far as you're game goes bandini. Advanced grammar isn't for people learning to read. Play some low level poker, well within your financial limits, make a lot of mistakes and learn a lot too. Read Harrington 1 and 2 (forget 3 it's rubbish) and play some more. Then read H1 and H2 again. It will start to make sense after that.
The very best way to learn is to watch some experienced players at the table. Not on TV because that's edited highlights. Log into a table or follow a player in a tournament and watch how they progress. The game is far more complex than what cards you are dealt, and the textbook strategy flies out the window at the top levels. That's the way to learn. Last thing, never over-estimate your ability or under-estimate your opponents.
Good luck with your poker and keep posting ........ just add a little
Hi bandini,
The reply by elsadog - who has been playing the game for well over a decade - is excellent.
There was also a terrific thread started by monkey123 recently, it may help you - it's HERE
Any more questions, just ask.
Sorry about my lack of intelligence, but at least I've got my youthful looks & natural hair. Two out of three any good?;)
Bandiuni,
You also asked if "a mathermatical understanding" was necessary.
Not really - but you do need to know the basics.
A few "real odds" ("implied odds" are completely different), are handy, you don't need many more.
Before I explain a few of the real odds, remember, ALWAYS, they are based on "clean outs". If you are unsure of what "clean outs" are, just ask.
To calculate odds instantly, just use "the rule of 4" & "the rule of 2".
The Rule of 4 ONLY applies on the flop. (With 2 cards to come).
The rule of 2 ONLY applies on the turn. (With one cards to come).
It's very simple. Multiply your "outs" on the flop by 4. And the answer is the % chance you have of hitting your outs. So, if you have, say, 8 outs after the flop, it's 8 x 4 = 32 = 32% = approx 2/1 to hit. "approx" is all it needs - to within a few % it matters not.
After the turn, it's the rule of 2. So, the same 8 outs = 8 x 2 = 16 = 16%, = just over 5/1 to hit.
You can, OVER TIME, bend maths by being the bettr/aggressor, not the caller - if by betting your draws strongly, you get your opponents to fold 50% of the time, then, over time, you are getting odds which are 50% better than the mathematical odds. When we call, we ONLY ever get the true maths odds.
Also, when calling, what you must do is compare your odds of hitting - let's say 2/1 - with the "price" you are getting to call. So, if you are getting 3/1 to call for a 2/1 shot, it's an easy-peasy call. If you are getting even money on a 2/1 shot, it's a snap pass. It's breathtaking how few players understand this fundamental basic of poker.
Conversely, when BETTING, bet so that you do not give your opponents the right price to call. If you think they are on a fush draw on the flop, say, do NOT give them the right price to call - if you do, they are entitled to call. So price them out, make it even money to call for their 2/1 shot every time, & I can guarantee that you will come out ahead over time - the maths never lie.
A few basic "standard" odds will follow.l
Flush draws. If you, or you suspect your oppo, are on a flush draw (2 in your hand, 2 on the flop), we have NINE outs, so 9 x 4 = 36, = 36%, = approx 2/1.
For an up & down straight draw, that's 8 outs, = 8 x 4 = 32 = 32%, = approx 2/1.
If you have both - flush draw AND straight draw, that's 15 outs (we need to deduct the flush outs from the str8 outs), (9 + 8 - 2) = 15 x 4 = 60 = 60% likely to hit, means you will hit 6 times in 10 - over half the pack is running for you.
2 overs (say, K-J or A-9) on a flop of 2-5-8, and you think one pair would be good ("clean"), then you have 6 outs = 6 x 4 = 24 = 24% = approx a 3/1 shot.
In all cases, the same holdings on the turn, multiply by TWO, not FOUR.
You have A-K, & you suspect your oppo has a pair Q-Q or less - you are 50% to hit IF you see all 5 cards.
So, as to odds, that's pretty much all you need to kbow. These are NOT to be confused with "implied odds" though. "Implied odds" are the excuse/justification players make when they make a bad call (don't have the odds) & hit.
Always remember, though, that is is BETTER TO BE THE BETTOR THAN THE CALLER. Because it improves your odds, & bends the maths.
Hi everyone!
I'd really like to find out what "clean outs" are if anyone can tell me?
I'd also like to discuss Tikays' example a little bit further:
At the moment i'm looking at this calculation as simply as possible -
2 hearts dealt to me, spade - diamond - club in the flop. 11 hearts left = 11x4=44%, if that card is dealt that leaves - 10 hearts left = 10x2=20% chance of making my hand?
Is there a way to calculate the end result of those two calculations before they are made? I'd appreciate it if someone could expand on my example only, because I understand that when taking the face value of the cards into the equation the math could become a little bit complicated!! Speaking from a novice point of view, knowing this information now, I would be quite happy to play that hand, but I really wouldn't feel comfortable going on any further knowing that my hand has just went from really good to really bad!
After re-reading Tikays posts around 8 times while trying to write this, i'm sure that the 'clean outs' have maybe more to do with this than I initially thought, so I could be wide of the mark and if thats the case i'd love someone to set me straight!
Incidently, I bought a book before starting poker because it was my understanding that poker maths is viewed as some sort of 'arcane' art. I bought a (highly) recommended book from Amazon (I won't name names incase it's frowned upon) and if my understanding of Tikays' post is correct, the books math took me longer than I had to make my bets in game. I may not be the world's greatest mathematician but I understand the principle of "keep it simple", and something essentially "simple" shouldn't take a whole chapter to explain. I won't knock it completely because it may be more use to the more gifted mathematicians among us! :P
Thanks all!
"Clean outs" are cards that will definitely give you the winning hand (when you only need one card to make your hand).
For example, if you hold Ah9h and the board is KhQh2c then you have 8 clean outs.
This is because any heart except the 2h will give you the best ("nut") hand.
The 2h will "probably" give you the best hand but may give your opponent quads or a full house so you can't guarantee it.
In your example, you need 3 cards to make a flush (which is impossible after that flop).
In reality, the "probability" of any particular card being dealt on the turn and river is 2.2% (approximately). However, it is much easier to multiply by 4 than 4.4 and the undervaluing of the chance of our required card coming on the turn or river also works well since it allows for re-draws and discounting of double draws (i.e. if we need to hit one card to make a flush and it comes on the turn then it is irrelevant if another one comes on the river).
Be very careful when using the rule of 4% though if your opponent is not "all-in" on the flop. Many people over-value the draw against an opponent who has got (a significant amount of) chips left. Remember that, if you do not hit your card on the turn, your opponent may bet again and you may not get the odds to call this time.
Thanks for the info man, very helpful! At this rate though, i'm going to run out of computer desk space to put all my reference notebooks!
Lol aye, I noticed my mistake after I posted (my unique 4 card flush!). I think thats why I've been losing so many hands!
Pete.
Thanks for the genuine advice from those who offered it.
Especially TK (getting my head around the 4&2 thing), even though he spelt my user name wrong, even with it at the top of the page. Hey, we all get old. The guy used to be able to play poker :-)
Does my smilie now qualify me as an ok guy?
In all honestly I take in everything the SP presenters say. Even Orford at times.