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You have the casting vote. What would your decision be?

Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,667

The IOC are voting today to decide if Russian Paralympians should be allowed in the Paralympics, which strikes me as a really difficult moral dilemma.

If the decision was yours, what would your decision be - & why?






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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,029
    Ban them.

    Sad for them, of course. But not so sad as forcing Ukrainian Paralympians having to face Russian athletes.

    Athletes are often penalised for the actions of their country. An example is the State-sponsored doping/cheating carried out by many Russian athletes. An unfortunate by-product is that many clean Russian athletes have not been allowed to compete at various events.

    There are unfortunate consequences in relation to acts of war. Not saying I don't feel sorry for Russian Paralympians. Just not as much as Ukrainian Paralympians, or indeed Ukrainian civilians.
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    lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,045
    If you're going to go down the sanction route then it has to be an absolute policy,you can't be cherry picking which sanctions to apply and which ones to disregard. Sanctions by their very nature are designed to disrupt the country on which they are imposed.

    noun: sanction; plural noun: sanctions.

    Measures taken by a state to coerce another to conform to an international agreement or norms of conduct, typically in the form of restrictions on trade or official sporting participation.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,667

    It's a horrible moral dilemma.

    Personally, I'd let them compete. For many of them - most of them - it's the biggest thing in their entire life - a life which has already been very cruel to them by way of their disability.

    Guess that's why I'd never make a good politician or Administrator - I'm too soft, but it breaks my heart to see these innocent civilians caught up in this nasty business, which is no fault of theirs.

    I can't really disagree with Phil or Lucy, excellent posts by both, but it's just so terrible for the (potentially) banned athletes.
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    Tikay10Tikay10 Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 160,667

    @Essexphil @lucy4


    What would your view be if they were allowed to compete as "Independents", rather than under the Russian flag? Feels like a fudge in some ways I suppose.
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    lucy4lucy4 Member Posts: 7,045
    Here's an interesting read on what different sports are doing.

    Full list of sports and competitions that have cut ties with Russia over Putin's invasion.

    https://www.itv.com/news/2022-02-25/champions-league-final-moved-from-russia-to-france-amid-ukraine-invasion
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,237
    I would stop them taking part.
    I think they should be stopped from competing in any sport.
    You would hope that the sanctions may lead to Putins removal at some point.
    Harsh sanctions will pi55 off more Russians, who will hopefully run out of patience.
    A small number of disappointed athletes, is no comparison to Ukrainians having their families slaughtered.
    Had they been harsher over Crimea in 2014, we might not be where we are today.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,237
    edited March 2022
    HAYSIE said:

    I would stop them taking part.
    I think they should be stopped from competing in any sport.
    You would hope that the sanctions may lead to Putins removal at some point.
    Harsh sanctions will pi55 off more Russians, who will hopefully run out of patience.
    A small number of disappointed athletes, is no comparison to Ukrainians having their families slaughtered.
    Had they been harsher over Crimea in 2014, we might not be where we are today.

    Not being allowed to compete is a little sad.
    The below is heart breaking,

    Ukrainian policeman's entire family is 'killed by Putin's thugs' while he is on patrol: Baby boy and six-year-old sister are shot dead with their mother and grandparents while fleeing invaders
    Oleg Fedko lost his wife Irina, 27, children Sofia, six, and Ivan, six-weeks, and parents Oleg Sr, 56 and Anna, 56


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10565231/Ukrainian-policemans-entire-family-killed-Putins-thugs-patrol.html
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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,194
    For me it's a ban and here's why.

    One of the main demands of disabled people, and as someone who has a disabled wife I know this to be true, is that society accepts them in the same manner as able bodied.

    If you start making allowances for them based on the disability then that acceptance is not genuine or done with integrity. Yes I'm aware that practical measures often need addressing on behalf of disabled people, access and egress being two of the most obvious, but outside of those type of issues it's a no brainer.

    You can't ask to be treated as equal in society until it doesn't suit you and them claim that you are different in some way and therefore deserving of special consideration.

    Sorry to come across as heartless but it has to be all or nothing.
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    kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,527
    edited March 2022
    They absolutely should be allowed to compete. They are in no way responsible for what's going on here. Would you prosecute a whole street because one man on it was a criminal? Of course not because that would be nonsense.

    Any other option would be inhumane. Nearly every Russian has committed no sin in this situation and should be treated just as holy as our next door neighbour.
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    pompeynicpompeynic Member Posts: 2,821
    I would ban them.
    As I would all different Russian and Belarusian athletes and sportspersons.
    I do feel sorry for them however, it is not their fault that they have a madman for a leader, as @Tikay10 says, for some this will be heartbreaking after putting so much into qualifying. However, as the rest of the world are hamstrung, unable to offer help in military terms, for fear the idiot presses the big red button, that means the whole human race faces a battle for survival, the only thing we can do is force sanctions through and try to make Putin so unpopular that someone within this vast country does the right thing and says that enough is enough.
    Will that happen? I do not know, but you only have to look back to the 1930’s to see what inactivity in the face of aggression leads to.
    One small positive to come from this should be that countries who have been slow to embrace the green energy push may well have to speed up their advances in that area, which would put a massive hole in the finances of Russian madmen and Middle East terrorists alike.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,237

    They absolutely should be allowed to compete. They are in no way responsible for what's going on here. Would you prosecute a whole street because one man on it was a criminal? Of course not because that would be nonsense.

    Any other option would be inhumane. Nearly every Russian has committed no sin in this situation and should be treated just as holy as our next door neighbour.

    So are you arguing for no sanctions then?
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    kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,527
    HAYSIE said:


    So are you arguing for no sanctions then?

    Not allowing athletes to compete is not even going to come close to effecting anything to do with this invasion imo. I think in this situation it's just an unnecessary and ineffective punishment on people who don't deserve it.

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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,194

    HAYSIE said:


    So are you arguing for no sanctions then?

    Not allowing athletes to compete is not even going to come close to effecting anything to do with this invasion imo. I think in this situation it's just an unnecessary and ineffective punishment on people who don't deserve it.

    My punishment for being a Russian athlete is to be banned from competition until this madness is over.
    Your punishment for being a Ukranian athlete is to have hyperbaric bombs dropped on you whilst you and your family fight just to stay alive.

    Who really is getting what they don't deserve
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    kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,527
    When 2 people have a fight and an innocent bystander is hurt that is seen as an injustice. People shouldn't blame and punish them further.

    You cannot compare how we treat Russians with how Putin is treating Ukrainians.
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    HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 32,237

    HAYSIE said:


    So are you arguing for no sanctions then?

    Not allowing athletes to compete is not even going to come close to effecting anything to do with this invasion imo. I think in this situation it's just an unnecessary and ineffective punishment on people who don't deserve it.

    The sanctions will hurt the Russian people.
    I dont think anyone thinks that the majority are guilty of anything.
    Life just isnt fair sometimes.
    If it is not sanctions, what is it?
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    kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,527
    Most of the sanctions are being put down because that's what the democratic society is screaming that they want, not because they think it will stop Putin's march. It's the same reason that we don't let more migrants into the UK, even tho they are net profit, which is the xenophobic electorate and a govt that wants to stay in power next time we come to vote. They are just going to throw everything they can at Russia and it's people, bar direct conflict, to appease western media and society however ineffective and unbalanced the measures actually are.

    Apple Pay and Google Pay being removed are going to achieve absolutely nothing with regard to Putin's direction, nor will it save any Ukrainians, and on balance is probably unnecessary, as is not allowing the Russian athletes to compete.
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    EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 8,029
    Tikay10 said:


    @Essexphil @lucy4


    What would your view be if they were allowed to compete as "Independents", rather than under the Russian flag? Feels like a fudge in some ways I suppose.

    For me, it is a fudge. One worthy of the institutionally corrupt IOC.

    Sport these days is very much a part of politics-not saying it should be, just that it is. Only have to look at the various owners of the richest clubs in the Premier League-many are owned by national interests. Or the enormous sums put into Olympic Sports by lots of countries, including our own, as well as Russia.

    There is no "right" answer to this question-so, for example, @kapowblamz view is certainly not "wrong".

    Having said that, at the next Paralympics there are very likely to be Ukrainians competing who are currently (or until very recently) not disabled. If we apply no sanctions, think it would be an awkward conversation there...
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    TheEdge949TheEdge949 Member Posts: 5,194
    edited March 2022
    Ok lets get serious and into the "REAL" world.

    What the sanctions are designed to do is make normal life impossible for normal people. This then affects business, economies and ultimately the bottom line of the most powerful men and women of the country being sanctioned.

    If normal people aren't being badly affected then the system of sanctions doesn't work, it can't. For sanctions to be effective people have to feel a sense of injustice, unfairness and suffering.

    These feelings then go up the layer cake until those at the very top are seeing severe impediment on their way of life.

    At that point they find a solution to the problem

    This hopefully results in a change of leadership either through peaceful means or a more direct and permanent method.

    Its about making Putin's position untenable and therefore bringing about an alternative.

    Yes its nasty, unpalatable and very unfair, but outside of the insulated, every body is equal, life should be fair to all bubble of wishful existence, it's what happens.



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    kapowblamzkapowblamz Member Posts: 1,527
    The Russian economy needs to be hurt right now as fast as possible, no doubt about it, but letting these athletes compete is neither here nor there.

    God knows how the world will look in a week or a month or a years time after this invasion has reached a conclusion, or perhaps it will still be ongoing. We now have a tyrant running amok and if he becomes an immovable object then we might just have to invite Russian athletes in with arms wide open just to get some sort of morality out of all of this.
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    goldongoldon Member Posts: 8,519
    I thought Ras Putin was elected for life at the last Democrackdit Election they had.

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