I use no charts i didn't even know what ICM meant until i saw this thread i use instincts and personnel knowledge , i play for fun , an escape, beats never bother me i've seen hundreds of them in my time here i've also sucked out hundreds of times i've deposited once in the last 5 years , i don't play as much now like i used to due to work and getting up early i'm not the best but i'm competent at the stakes i play at I've not looked at scope for a few years now so god knows how i'm doing , losing a bit ,winning a bit i don't know , i don't know what my ROI is , may by someone can tell me
So back to the thread title... none of you hold em guys seem keen to talk about whether you stick to the ICM or push/fold tables in all instances, or there are times when its right to ditch it in certain situations.
Bean81 says it accounts for absolutely everything, so im guessing he sticks rigidly to his programme. Monty on the other hand, says he made his move as its standard (using ICM), then some days later put up the mysterious 'no charts'.
I mean plenty of you have said you are keen for me to listen and that i could learn something, but on this one you seem to be holding back.
well I play mostly spin and goes these days so I dont use ICM at all. I mean I always play to win now if a 10x on stars comes up that pays 8x for first and 2x for second, which should come up 0.5% of the time then I will play completely for the win eg if I am one of the small stacks and the stacks are in blinds 10 1 2 and I am in the big blind I am calling of any two. I am not sure if that is correct in terms of ICM I am sure someone can find spots I am meant to fold in terms of ICM but then the spots would be so rare as for me to not care anyway.
I dont think anyone is stupid enough to reveal their exact strategy for games where people have their screen name on a public forum. I dont care about sharing that because it is such a rare spot and no one has my stars screen name anyway.
people will play what they believe works to make money If you suspect people are using charts during live play that is one thing. Otherwise whats the deal are you saying you think it is incorrect to play according to such charts? great then if your right so many people are playing wrong and you can make a killing why complain about it? if your wrong then like what your telling people not to play in a way that is profitable for them?
you know Mormons tell me that I shouldn't drink caffeine doesn't stop me there was a time I spent with the Mormons, this saga could be known as doublemes time with the Mormons.
It ended when I said I agreed with Satan I am not even kidding either lol.
why do you start these threads @TheWaddy ? you listen to no one, take nothing on board, so it begs the question why do you even bother? is just to rant, blow off steam? i just don't get it.
I use no charts i didn't even know what ICM meant until i saw this thread i use instincts and personnel knowledge , i play for fun , an escape, beats never bother me i've seen hundreds of them in my time here i've also sucked out hundreds of times i've deposited once in the last 5 years , i don't play as much now like i used to due to work and getting up early i'm not the best but i'm competent at the stakes i play at I've not looked at scope for a few years now so god knows how i'm doing , losing a bit ,winning a bit i don't know , i don't know what my ROI is , may by someone can tell me
I use no charts i didn't even know what ICM meant until i saw this thread i use instincts and personnel knowledge , i play for fun , an escape, beats never bother me i've seen hundreds of them in my time here i've also sucked out hundreds of times i've deposited once in the last 5 years , i don't play as much now like i used to due to work and getting up early i'm not the best but i'm competent at the stakes i play at I've not looked at scope for a few years now so god knows how i'm doing , losing a bit ,winning a bit i don't know , i don't know what my ROI is , may by someone can tell me
Believe it or not, my son, partner and day job are more important than you and this thread. You may be hitting refresh on this thread every ten minutes all day long, but I'm not. I drop into the forum when I’m in bed or on the toilet.
I've never claimed to be a top player and never will be: my day job will always be more lucrative and I value time with my family and friends. It would also be stupid to think I can ever consistently compete with somebody that can dedicate 60 hours per week to efficient poker study and playing. Relative to beginner knowledge on maths and theory though, I know enough to be able to identify misunderstanding and blunders. I can also use a calculator for reviewing short stack ranges like I did for Phil.
If you want to play "real poker" (i.e. closer to unsolved games) you should be playing short-handed 250bb with ante cash games. Sky offer 200bb "Deep" cash games but no ante. Playing HUSNG is mostly just maths after 2-3 levels.
To the point I think you are trying to make: clearly higher winrates can be achieved by exploiting your opponents' weaknesses. You can't do that optimally though without understanding the theory. Without reads, you can't make exploits and should default to theory. Any huge adjustments from theory will still get battered by every sh1t reg going and none of this means you should be calling with close to any two in a satellite or folding KTs with 5 left and 3 paying. ICM calcs excel at satellite bubble play. No matter what your read, you are going to struggle in mtts without understanding ICM.
why do you start these threads @TheWaddy ? you listen to no one, take nothing on board, so it begs the question why do you even bother? is just to rant, blow off steam? i just don't get it.
If you are reading my posts as 'rants', all i can say is you can read things in the wrong context, i assure you!
A post about ICM and push/fold charts, whether we should be able to choose who we play in HU games, large amounts of quads in games.... all sparked debate and are heavily read (inc yourself ) in comparison to vast majority of threads started on here.
If it deviates back to RNG or wotever, then im afraid this is started by others who then demand that i answer and claim i avoid the question if i dont!
Believe it or not, my son, partner and day job are more important than you and this thread. You may be hitting refresh on this thread every ten minutes all day long, but I'm not. I drop into the forum when I’m in bed or on the toilet.
I've never claimed to be a top player and never will be: my day job will always be more lucrative and I value time with my family and friends. It would also be stupid to think I can ever consistently compete with somebody that can dedicate 60 hours per week to efficient poker study and playing. Relative to beginner knowledge on maths and theory though, I know enough to be able to identify misunderstanding and blunders. I can also use a calculator for reviewing short stack ranges like I did for Phil.
If you want to play "real poker" (i.e. closer to unsolved games) you should be playing short-handed 250bb with ante cash games. Sky offer 200bb "Deep" cash games but no ante. Playing HUSNG is mostly just maths after 2-3 levels.
To the point I think you are trying to make: clearly higher winrates can be achieved by exploiting your opponents' weaknesses. You can't do that optimally though without understanding the theory. Without reads, you can't make exploits and should default to theory. Any huge adjustments from theory will still get battered by every sh1t reg going and none of this means you should be calling with close to any two in a satellite or folding KTs with 5 left and 3 paying. ICM calcs excel at satellite bubble play. No matter what your read, you are going to struggle in mtts without understanding ICM.
Thank you for your contribution... how were your stools today? Have you a chart for these?
I use no charts i didn't even know what ICM meant until i saw this thread i use instincts and personnel knowledge , i play for fun , an escape, beats never bother me i've seen hundreds of them in my time here i've also sucked out hundreds of times i've deposited once in the last 5 years , i don't play as much now like i used to due to work and getting up early i'm not the best but i'm competent at the stakes i play at I've not looked at scope for a few years now so god knows how i'm doing , losing a bit ,winning a bit i don't know , i don't know what my ROI is , may by someone can tell me
Bean81 says you 'will struggle in mtts without understanding ICM'... Maybe it is more effective in the wsop or at least pokerstars, as Stokefc has never heard of it and seems to do ok in mtts on Sky!
My only experience of mtt on Sky is the few times i qualify for the 1k freeroll... in fields of 400+, ive had a 2nd and a 4th and cash for minor more than i dont. I had enough points for the Sunday Major freeroll for the first time the other week and only went out in 5th to a dodgy call.
Before you say it, small fry stuff i know, but then again most stuff on Sky is right?
It may give you a small edge in certain spots, but to suggest you will 'struggle' whilst playing on Sky, the proof is in the pudding.....
I think certain moves approaching bubbles and big money jumps is pretty much standard to be a half decent mtt player, as is when to gamble when you think someone 'is at it' or if you can get away with it yourself.
ICM may enhance your game further it seems, but i think you can still comfortably hold your own on a site like Sky.
Bean81 says you 'will struggle in mtts without understanding ICM'... Maybe it is more effective in the wsop or at least pokerstars, as Stokefc has never heard of it and seems to do ok in mtts on Sky!
My only experience of mtt on Sky is the few times i qualify for the 1k freeroll... in fields of 400+, ive had a 2nd and a 4th and cash for minor more than i dont. I had enough points for the Sunday Major freeroll for the first time the other week and only went out in 5th to a dodgy call.
Before you say it, small fry stuff i know, but then again most stuff on Sky is right?
It may give you a small edge in certain spots, but to suggest you will 'struggle' whilst playing on Sky, the proof is in the pudding.....
I think certain moves approaching bubbles and big money jumps is pretty much standard to be a half decent mtt player, as is when to gamble when you think someone 'is at it' or if you can get away with it yourself.
ICM may enhance your game further it seems, but i think you can still comfortably hold your own on a site like Sky.
You raise an interesting point in there. For all you talk nonsense at times, one thing you do achieve is for people to talk about poker on this forum-which was getting increasingly rare.
Everyone will have their own idea as to what is "small fry" stuff. But, on Sky at least, the tipping point is probably the games over £5.50, and those at or below that figure.
In games that are £5.50 and below, I believe the most important thing is a player's strengths. The things you do well. Because, on Sky at least, there are quite a few players that people with strengths can take advantage of.
In games over £5.50, there are far fewer "weak" players. Consequently, assessing other players' weaknesses within their game, coupled with reducing weaknesses in one's own game, become far more important.
That's not to say that the other sides of those coins are irrelevant. But, FWIW, that's my take on it. Similarly, things don't tend to be black & white-so, for example, someone may not understand Nash charts, but still know "when to gamble" and when "you can get away with it"-which are related concepts.
I would mention that Freerolls are a totally different beast. Where different rules apply. For a start, it should normally be good to seek coin flips.
You are 1 of many people who want to portray Sky as a "weak" site. 5+ years ago that was definitely true. It might still be true at the £1 level. I don't know-I've never played there. PLO8 is almost bound to be weak, simply because of how little of it runs. You should try the £5.50 PLO8 at 19:18 some time. It has a mixture of both incredibly bad and incredibly good players.
But the standard at NLHE on Sky is far, far higher than it was. And is not weak.
Hmmm, i think a big reason that yourself, JohnMonty and the like play here at all, is you feel its easier money than the bigger sites... otherwise you would be playing sites with bigger gntd prize funds than Sky offer for the same outlay.....
There has to be some kind of honesty here, it amuses me when players mention 'bum-hunting', when their choice of site is not Pokerstars... why else would they be playing anywhere else.
I mean, please dont tell me its for the fantastic cameradarie......
Freerolls for me are, any 2 decent cards all-inn, until you get to the top 20 or so, then see what stack size you've got and take it from there, It's a Freeroll.
It's difficult to only play pokerstars tournaments because the field sizes are so big you can play thousands of games and win nothing. Phil is right sky isn't as easy as it once was. Before you had a handful of good players and the rest were recreational. Now how I see the tournaments 20percent good player, 40 percent recreational, 40 percent who got some basic coaching. So if you wanna play tournaments with the most amount of recs per game, sky is probably the worst option now.
Hmmm, i think a big reason that yourself, JohnMonty and the like play here at all, is you feel its easier money than the bigger sites... otherwise you would be playing sites with bigger gntd prize funds than Sky offer for the same outlay.....
There has to be some kind of honesty here, it amuses me when players mention 'bum-hunting', when their choice of site is not Pokerstars... why else would they be playing anywhere else.
I mean, please dont tell me its for the fantastic cameradarie......
or its that the smaller tournaments means less variance. The thing is if you play a tourneys with 100 runners or 50 runners your going to get a lot less variance then if you play tournaments with 5000 runners.
Assuming the standard is the same for both and you have an edge against the field, your ROI for the bigger fields would be higher I expect over a proper sample size because more play more opportunity to outplay those who you have an edge over etc.
However because most of the prize money is in the top few places your going to get more variance. This is why I would choose sky over other sites for mtts. If I want to take a long shot and hope to win a house or the likes I can try the sunday million occasionally.
Why do you take shots at others all the time what is the point? like If I said I failed my exam (not saying I did) you would love to rub it in my face and be like see he doesnt know math and shouldnt be trusted etc it just makes you come over as a nasty person.
I will unashamedly play where I can make the most money, if I had a large enough bank roll and found a live £1000 NL poker game or a game with £5/£10 blind levels where people were playing really bad and it was clear I had a massive edge and could make say 25 big blinds an hour do you think I am going to be like "no there is no skill in this I am instead going to try and beat $20 NL on this site because thats harder so more impressive"?
No I would milk the **** out of that. Like different people prefer different things for different reasons but ultimately I will play where I believe I can make the most money. Right now I would do better on sky then I can from spin and goes (the fields are tough when you get to reasonable stakes) but I am trying to progress there because I believe long term I can make more money there if I improve then I can here.
In truth if I learned to multi table across 3/4 four sites and mass multi tabled 5/10 £/$/euro this would probably be the easiest way to make decent money but then I find been glued to the computer for 12 hours straight kind of a drag. personal preference etc.
Freerolls for me are, any 2 decent cards all-inn, until you get to the top 20 or so, then see what stack size you've got and take it from there, It's a Freeroll.
Yeah my personal choice is pump or dump, all in any decent hand all in and hope 1 or even 2 bite..... it then gives a good platform for rest of tourn or you go out without having to sit around an hour to do so..... If i double/triple up i play normal from there.
Why do you take shots at others all the time what is the point? like If I said I failed my exam (not saying I did) you would love to rub it in my face and be like see he doesnt know math and shouldnt be trusted etc it just makes you come over as a nasty person.
Im disappointed that you would think that is something i would do. I find EssexPhil one of the best contributors to my posts, he says what he thinks, i say what i think, but its often constructive... and its always about poker (a shock on here i know).
There is a load whos comments are purely put downs and simply have nothing else to offer. I do remember wishing u luck on your exam and despite u trying to set me up in my personal message inbox, i still had a completely normal conversation with u...
Sometimes EssexPhil will put a lil' old dig in there and i give him one back! Its 50/50 on that one.
I will give you smaller mtt fields means shorter touneys, more opportunity. Players may well have got better on Sky, but i can assure you if they felt games were softer elsewhere, they would be there!
Comments
I dont think anyone is stupid enough to reveal their exact strategy for games where people have their screen name on a public forum. I dont care about sharing that because it is such a rare spot and no one has my stars screen name anyway.
people will play what they believe works to make money If you suspect people are using charts during live play that is one thing. Otherwise whats the deal are you saying you think it is incorrect to play according to such charts? great then if your right so many people are playing wrong and you can make a killing why complain about it? if your wrong then like what your telling people not to play in a way that is profitable for them?
you know Mormons tell me that I shouldn't drink caffeine doesn't stop me there was a time I spent with the Mormons, this saga could be known as doublemes time with the Mormons.
It ended when I said I agreed with Satan I am not even kidding either lol.
you listen to no one, take nothing on board, so it begs the question why do you even bother? is just to rant, blow off steam? i just don't get it.
quoted the wrong post #oldmanproblems
I've not looked at scope for a few years now so god knows how i'm doing , losing a bit ,winning a bit i don't know , i don't know what my ROI is , may by someone can tell me
15.8%
Believe it or not, my son, partner and day job are more important than you and this thread. You may be hitting refresh on this thread every ten minutes all day long, but I'm not. I drop into the forum when I’m in bed or on the toilet.
I've never claimed to be a top player and never will be: my day job will always be more lucrative and I value time with my family and friends. It would also be stupid to think I can ever consistently compete with somebody that can dedicate 60 hours per week to efficient poker study and playing. Relative to beginner knowledge on maths and theory though, I know enough to be able to identify misunderstanding and blunders. I can also use a calculator for reviewing short stack ranges like I did for Phil.
If you want to play "real poker" (i.e. closer to unsolved games) you should be playing short-handed 250bb with ante cash games. Sky offer 200bb "Deep" cash games but no ante. Playing HUSNG is mostly just maths after 2-3 levels.
To the point I think you are trying to make: clearly higher winrates can be achieved by exploiting your opponents' weaknesses. You can't do that optimally though without understanding the theory. Without reads, you can't make exploits and should default to theory. Any huge adjustments from theory will still get battered by every sh1t reg going and none of this means you should be calling with close to any two in a satellite or folding KTs with 5 left and 3 paying. ICM calcs excel at satellite bubble play. No matter what your read, you are going to struggle in mtts without understanding ICM.
If you are reading my posts as 'rants', all i can say is you can read things in the wrong context, i assure you!
A post about ICM and push/fold charts, whether we should be able to choose who we play in HU games, large amounts of quads in games.... all sparked debate and are heavily read (inc yourself ) in comparison to vast majority of threads started on here.
If it deviates back to RNG or wotever, then im afraid this is started by others who then demand that i answer and claim i avoid the question if i dont!
Good work mate
15.8% not bad for an idiot
My only experience of mtt on Sky is the few times i qualify for the 1k freeroll... in fields of 400+, ive had a 2nd and a 4th and cash for minor more than i dont. I had enough points for the Sunday Major freeroll for the first time the other week and only went out in 5th to a dodgy call.
Before you say it, small fry stuff i know, but then again most stuff on Sky is right?
It may give you a small edge in certain spots, but to suggest you will 'struggle' whilst playing on Sky, the proof is in the pudding.....
I think certain moves approaching bubbles and big money jumps is pretty much standard to be a half decent mtt player, as is when to gamble when you think someone 'is at it' or if you can get away with it yourself.
ICM may enhance your game further it seems, but i think you can still comfortably hold your own on a site like Sky.
Everyone will have their own idea as to what is "small fry" stuff. But, on Sky at least, the tipping point is probably the games over £5.50, and those at or below that figure.
In games that are £5.50 and below, I believe the most important thing is a player's strengths. The things you do well. Because, on Sky at least, there are quite a few players that people with strengths can take advantage of.
In games over £5.50, there are far fewer "weak" players. Consequently, assessing other players' weaknesses within their game, coupled with reducing weaknesses in one's own game, become far more important.
That's not to say that the other sides of those coins are irrelevant. But, FWIW, that's my take on it. Similarly, things don't tend to be black & white-so, for example, someone may not understand Nash charts, but still know "when to gamble" and when "you can get away with it"-which are related concepts.
I would mention that Freerolls are a totally different beast. Where different rules apply. For a start, it should normally be good to seek coin flips.
You are 1 of many people who want to portray Sky as a "weak" site. 5+ years ago that was definitely true. It might still be true at the £1 level. I don't know-I've never played there. PLO8 is almost bound to be weak, simply because of how little of it runs. You should try the £5.50 PLO8 at 19:18 some time. It has a mixture of both incredibly bad and incredibly good players.
But the standard at NLHE on Sky is far, far higher than it was. And is not weak.
There has to be some kind of honesty here, it amuses me when players mention 'bum-hunting', when their choice of site is not Pokerstars... why else would they be playing anywhere else.
I mean, please dont tell me its for the fantastic cameradarie......
Assuming the standard is the same for both and you have an edge against the field, your ROI for the bigger fields would be higher I expect over a proper sample size because more play more opportunity to outplay those who you have an edge over etc.
However because most of the prize money is in the top few places your going to get more variance. This is why I would choose sky over other sites for mtts. If I want to take a long shot and hope to win a house or the likes I can try the sunday million occasionally.
Why do you take shots at others all the time what is the point? like If I said I failed my exam (not saying I did) you would love to rub it in my face and be like see he doesnt know math and shouldnt be trusted etc it just makes you come over as a nasty person.
I will unashamedly play where I can make the most money, if I had a large enough bank roll and found a live £1000 NL poker game or a game with £5/£10 blind levels where people were playing really bad and it was clear I had a massive edge and could make say 25 big blinds an hour do you think I am going to be like "no there is no skill in this I am instead going to try and beat $20 NL on this site because thats harder so more impressive"?
No I would milk the **** out of that.
Like different people prefer different things for different reasons but ultimately I will play where I believe I can make the most money. Right now I would do better on sky then I can from spin and goes (the fields are tough when you get to reasonable stakes) but I am trying to progress there because I believe long term I can make more money there if I improve then I can here.
In truth if I learned to multi table across 3/4 four sites and mass multi tabled 5/10 £/$/euro this would probably be the easiest way to make decent money but then I find been glued to the computer for 12 hours straight kind of a drag. personal preference etc.
Why do you take shots at others all the time what is the point? like If I said I failed my exam (not saying I did) you would love to rub it in my face and be like see he doesnt know math and shouldnt be trusted etc it just makes you come over as a nasty person.
Im disappointed that you would think that is something i would do. I find EssexPhil one of the best contributors to my posts, he says what he thinks, i say what i think, but its often constructive... and its always about poker (a shock on here i know).
There is a load whos comments are purely put downs and simply have nothing else to offer. I do remember wishing u luck on your exam and despite u trying to set me up in my personal message inbox, i still had a completely normal conversation with u...
Sometimes EssexPhil will put a lil' old dig in there and i give him one back! Its 50/50 on that one.
I will give you smaller mtt fields means shorter touneys, more opportunity. Players may well have got better on Sky, but i can assure you if they felt games were softer elsewhere, they would be there!